Comparison of Irish clubs in Europe versus Scottish clubs in Europe

[BonnieShels]

That's very true but the main thing that we should be concentrating on is the Barstoolers. Listening to today FM today and every Saturday should show you that.

[mypost]

No it isn't. We should be concentrating on running clubs properly, building good facilities for fans, playing games at proper times, and getting better tv coverage. There will always be barstoolers. There's no point trying to deal with most of them.

[legendz]

For all the Scottish clubs to be knocked out and Rovers to go through, we are looking at something like the following odds:

3/1 Rangers draw
6/4 Celtic loss
1/5 Spurs win (not that it matters as they are virtually through)
25/1 Shamrock Rovers to draw 2-2 ( The result I think it'll be if they get through)

Acc. Odds: 312/1

Odds by Ladbrokes as PP don't have Rovers correct score odds yet.

[Charlie Darwin]

They would give them a test but Hearts are a better team. Gary Twigg might be the star there but he wouldn't get a game for Kilmarnock.
Well Conor Sammon couldn't get a game for Derry City but did OK at Kilmarnock.

[bullit]

Well Conor Sammon couldn't get a game for Derry City but did OK at Kilmarnock.
Now ! Now ! Chucky is blinded by his love for the all conquering Celtic Utd,.leave him and his mates alone to discuss their failure to score @ home V the MIGHTY Sion on Thursday.I enjoy his tales about their exploits around Europe and their involvment in a pish-poor leauge :p

[Eminence Grise]

No it isn't. We should be concentrating on running clubs properly, building good facilities for fans, playing games at proper times, and getting better tv coverage. There will always be barstoolers. There's no point trying to deal with most of them.

That's it in a nutshell.

[born2bwild]

No it isn't. We should be concentrating on running clubs properly, building good facilities for fans, playing games at proper times, and getting better tv coverage. There will always be barstoolers. There's no point trying to deal with most of them.
The better the TV coverage becomes the more likely it is that the scales will fall from the eyes of the lads in the pub following 'their' 'local' team in Britain.
Who else but barstoolers are likely to start following their local (no inverted commas) team in Ireland?
Possibly Rugby followers, far less likely to be GAA fans (although you never know).

[mypost]

British teams will always attract people to the pub. What we have to do is run our affairs properly, so less things go wrong and we become less of a laughing stock.

We're not the only league to have small attendances in Europe. There's several around us. What we don't have is a well-run league, proper facilities in stadiums, and players in the international team.

[nigel-harps1954]

For all the Scottish clubs to be knocked out and Rovers to go through, we are looking at something like the following odds:

3/1 Rangers draw
6/4 Celtic loss
1/5 Spurs win (not that it matters as they are virtually through)
25/1 Shamrock Rovers to draw 2-2 ( The result I think it'll be if they get through)

Acc. Odds: 312/1

Odds by Ladbrokes as PP don't have Rovers correct score odds yet.

I'd almost stick a fiver on this for the craic.

[TiocfaidhArmani]

Is SuperGretna back here?

When we lose in Europe, we lose narrowly, and usually after putting up a very good fight. We don't do 5-goal losses at home. Gretna in fairness to them, only do 4-goal losses.

For all it's alleged superiority, the SPL may have as many teams in Europe after this round, as the LOI.

Comparing a team who qualified through a cup run while in the second tier to yourselves. Okay then....

[TiocfaidhArmani]

Well Conor Sammon couldn't get a game for Derry City but did OK at Kilmarnock.

Look at his record for them before one good HALF season. He was awful, he had a good six months.

[mypost]

Comparing a team who qualified through a cup run while in the second tier to yourselves. Okay then....

You're the one telling us Scottish clubs are Barcelona in disguise. Not us.

[TiocfaidhArmani]

Now ! Now ! Chucky is blinded by his love for the all conquering Celtic Utd,.leave him and his mates alone to discuss their failure to score @ home V the MIGHTY Sion on Thursday.I enjoy his tales about their exploits around Europe and their involvment in a pish-poor leauge :p

I like to keep things in perspective. You won't see me screaming about a bad home game in Europe. As always, I keep things in perspective and see we've one of the best records in Europe for home games and have had the place as a fortress in Europe the last decade. A lean patch is coming but sure that run was never gonna last forever.

I've seen us beat Barcelona, AC Milan, Juventus and Man United in the not too distant past. I have many tales of exploits, including winning at Anfield and attending a major European final with 80,000 others using planes, trains and automobiles to get there. I could write a book of my European journeys with Celtic. You couldn't write a sidenote :)

[TiocfaidhArmani]

You're the one telling us Scottish clubs are Barcelona in disguise. Not us.


No, what I'm saying is for such a small country they've punched above their weight when you put it in perspective.

On this thread you go on about needing better facilities etc to attract fans. You need money for this. We can't all go into administration and rip off our creditors and have a new stadium built for us by the state to get what we need. You can't just have those things from scratch. You need fans to invest in you before you can invest in yourselves. Just like the shambles of a situation where Rovers went to build a stadium they couldn't afford and it just lay there as a building site for years before the state bailed you out.

The blame for the state of the LOI and all it incorporates is the shambolic attitude of Irish people to their own league - period. Clubs have made an effort to improve their teams with quality and nearly bankrupted themselves while doing it.

[born2bwild]

How do you suggest changing the situation, TA?

I'm assuming you'd like to see an improvement, so, what, apart from waxing monotonously about Celtic, do you have to say?

[mypost]

On this thread you go on about needing better facilities etc to attract fans. You need money for this. We can't all go into administration and rip off our creditors and have a new stadium built for us by the state to get what we need. You can't just have those things from scratch. You need fans to invest in you before you can invest in yourselves. Just like the shambles of a situation where Rovers went to build a stadium they couldn't afford and it just lay there as a building site for years before the state bailed you out.

The blame for the state of the LOI and all it incorporates is the shambolic attitude of Irish people to their own league - period. Clubs have made an effort to improve their teams with quality and nearly bankrupted themselves while doing it.

As is the case with most clubs everywhere, Celtic and Rangers included. If you want squad quality you have to pay for it. If you want to run a league well, you need the determination to change the status quo. If you want good facilities, you have to have drive and ambition to build them. That's what we had, and without it, Tallaght Stadium would remain a field.

[mrtndvn]

Whats all the Celtic bashing about, they are one of the better Irish teams I've seen play in Europe recently.

[TiocfaidhArmani]

As is the case with most clubs everywhere, Celtic and Rangers included. If you want squad quality you have to pay for it. If you want to run a league well, you need the determination to change the status quo. If you want good facilities, you have to have drive and ambition to build them. That's what we had, and without it, Tallaght Stadium would remain a field.

The state bailed them out and built it for them. Tallaght was a shambles until SDCC bailed them out and built it for them. I don't get the point about them.


How do you suggest changing the situation, TA?

I'm assuming you'd like to see an improvement, so, what, apart from waxing monotonously about Celtic, do you have to say?


Check the title of the thread and see why I'm talking about Celtic.

I'm not sure is the honest answer. How do you change attitudes that have been there for decades now. It's so engrained it's not even funny. I would say we need state help or some form of marketing campaign from the FAI to encourage folk to support their local team. The LOI clubs can't do it on their own. You can talk about 'drive' and 'ambition' but you need money and outside help, like the kind you got to help you get out of the shambles you were in. On your own you were the joke of the LOI. Look what you have now with some outside assistance.

[placid casual]

What is your major malfunction pal.
Are you bitter cos your a shels fan,or cos the sellthick dream you bought into isnt shared by the hoi polloi here?

[mypost]

I'm not sure is the honest answer. How do you change attitudes that have been there for decades now. It's so engrained it's not even funny. I would say we need state help or some form of marketing campaign from the FAI to encourage folk to support their local team. The LOI clubs can't do it on their own. You can talk about 'drive' and 'ambition' but you need money and outside help, like the kind you got to help you get out of the shambles you were in. On your own you were the joke of the LOI. Look what you have now with some outside assistance.

You are replying to the wrong poster of course, and fwiw, Fingal closed the shop up 6 months ago.

The clubs can do it, but few have the determination to change things. Most insist on playing on weeknights, and defend their "right" to play then stoutly. If Celtic played at home on Friday nights, they wouldn't half fill the stadium, so what chance have clubs here got? The ko must also be 7.45pm. Not 7.10-20-30-40-50-8pm, it must be 7.45pm, because that's how it always was and will be. Doesn't matter if nobody turns up. People have 15 minutes more to get to our ground, and we have the highest attendances in the league.

If RTE cover league games, they must be on Friday nights when other fans are at their own games, and the ko must be 7.35pm, except the final night of the season when they give a whopping extra 10 minutes for you to get to the venue. Sky and ESPN don't allow such shambolic organisation in the SPL. You play at their times so everyone else can see them.

About squad quality, you have two choices. Spend big and risk oblivion, or spend wisely and risk mediocrity. Spending wisely, as we do, ultimately earns you prizes, but that's not possible if you want success tomorrow.

It took us 13 years to move to Tallaght and 16 years to win a league title. We had to work very hard for what we have now, nothing was easy for us, but we painstakingly stuck at it and we have the rewards for doing so. Other clubs should have gone down the same road. Instead some of them went out of business and more may follow. That's football.

[TiocfaidhArmani]

It took us 13 years to move to Tallaght and 16 years to win a league title. We had to work very hard for what we have now, nothing was easy for us, but we painstakingly stuck at it and we have the rewards for doing so. Other clubs should have gone down the same road. Instead some of them went out of business and more may follow. That's football.

You ran away from your debt and had a nice little ground built for you, what hard work did you did to recify the situation? Seems to me you had it on a plate for you. Unlike you, Shels have faced up to their problems without running away from them and then looking to seek credit for it. I wasn't quoting the wrong poster, I remember the shambles and joke that was Shamrock Rovers. You cheated your creditors and were homeless until SDCC bailed you out with tax-payers money. What did you do? You deserve no slap on the back.

[mypost]

We didn't run away from our debt. We went through a 3-month restructuring process, and at the end of it, we paid the creditors the amount as per the agreement reached. Since then, everyone and everything at SRFC has been paid on time and in full.

[TiocfaidhArmani]

We didn't run away from our debt. We went through a 3-month restructuring process, and at the end of it, we paid the creditors the amount as per the agreement reached. Since then, everyone and everything at SRFC has been paid on time and in full.

Oh since then. That's nice, what about the millions before that you never paid? You got bailed out re your ground after being homeless and a running joke for a couple of decades and then try and portray you as a model for others to follow?! You can word it how you wish, but you were irresponsible and got bailed out. I would hope others don't follow your path.

[born2bwild]

Check the title of the thread and see why I'm talking about Celtic.

I'm not sure is the honest answer. How do you change attitudes that have been there for decades now. It's so engrained it's not even funny. I would say we need state help or some form of marketing campaign from the FAI to encourage folk to support their local team. The LOI clubs can't do it on their own. You can talk about 'drive' and 'ambition' but you need money and outside help, like the kind you got to help you get out of the shambles you were in. On your own you were the joke of the LOI. Look what you have now with some outside assistance.

You're confusing me with a Shams fan! It takes a lot to insult me, but, well done: Celtic 1 Me 0.

Look, Celtic are one of the great British clubs - they were European Champions ffs - but what you don't seem to appreciate fully is how much the LOI is competing for money, talent, loyalty and so on with the GAA.

Did you see that Colm Cooper chap for Kerry the other day? Or Henry Shefflin for Kilkenny two weeks ago? World class athletes playing in a world class stadium. Celtic would not have the tradition, success, loyalty, money and talent that they have had if they had to compete with the monster that is the GAA. The LoI would have its own European pedigree and trophies too if players and support like I've mentioned above were devoted to soccer.

In making the comparison between Irish and Scottish teams you will understand nothing if you do not recognise that Irish teams succeed in spite of the odds.

Ironically, Scottish teams are, in the wider scheme of things, getting closer to the level of the LoI but for different reasons - TV money has inflated the Sky Sports leagues into an even more grotesque and bloated monster than the GAA.

The demise of Scottish football and the constant struggles of Irish football should concern you as you are both a Shels and a Celtic fan. You're not going to change either situation by deluding yourself about the health of the Scottish game and making petty digs at the Irish.

[TiocfaidhArmani]

I agree re the GAA and rugby is nowhere as popular in Scotland as it is in Ireland also. It's not digs, it's what I feel and I say things as I see them. For all the knockers I admire that such a small country has done so well and how they support their own league despite being on the same land mass as England. I know what you mean about TV money but it's only a small amount the SPL gets and even then they get it because SKY feel it's worth investing in because people will watch it. We would have a deal like that if our people even had enough interest to watch it on telly, but we don't even have a barstool support. Like I keep say if we can change attitudes we can change the league, but there needs to be a marketing campaign, be it by the state or FAI to encourage support, like as how Leinster have become massive - it was all down to advertising and marketing imo.

[Charlie Darwin]

Look at his record for them before one good HALF season. He was awful, he had a good six months.
Yeah but the point is that he got into the team more or less straight away and he wasn't even close to the first team at Derry.

[TiocfaidhArmani]

Yeah but the point is that he got into the team more or less straight away and he wasn't even close to the first team at Derry.

Mate the star man in the LOI was playing for a team in the THIRD TIER of the Scottish football after being unable to get a game for Hamilton, then in the second tier of Scottish football. I don't really think there's a comparison there.

Sammon scored 17 goals in three and a half seasons in the SPL and made 65 appearances in three and a half seasons. What does that work out an average of? 18 games? He was rank rotten his first three seasons and played the same amount of games on average he played for Derry in a season if Wiki is to be believed.

But again, there's no comparison with the two examples. One is a player in the third tier of Scottish football after failing in the second tier going to the LOI and is now one of the main men for the main team. Sammon played 16 times for Derry, about the same he averaged for Killie, who are hardly the creme de la creme of the SPL. P*ss poor comparison.

[Charlie Darwin]

Mate the star man in the LOI was playing for a team in the THIRD TIER of the Scottish football after being unable to get a game for Hamilton, then in the second tier of Scottish football. I don't really think there's a comparison there.

Sammon scored 17 goals in three and a half seasons in the SPL and made 65 appearances in three and a half seasons. What does that work out an average of? 18 games? He was rank rotten his first three seasons and played the same amount of games on average he played for Derry in a season if Wiki is to be believed.

But again, there's no comparison with the two examples. One is a player in the third tier of Scottish football after failing in the second tier going to the LOI and is now one of the main men for the main team. Sammon played 16 times for Derry, about the same he averaged for Killie, who are hardly the creme de la creme of the SPL. P*ss poor comparison.
Well Sammon worked on his game and became a much better player. I don't know why you won't give Twigg the same credit. The best striker in the League of Ireland would have a good shot of getting into a few SPL teams. The standard isn't that much higher.

[TiocfaidhArmani]

It took Sammon three years to up his game and he came from a top Irish team to a lower end SPL team so again I don't see the comparison of someone coming from the third tier of Scottish football after failing in the second tier.

Maybe some players would, I don't know really if the standard is all that much higher, but there is a lot more international level footballers in the SPL and players who stay in Scotland rather than go the championship etc in England because the money is not bad in the top end of the SPL. The likes of Jody Morris and Michael Duberry while not being world beaters playing for St Johnstone would never be attracted to the LOI.

[mypost]

Oh since then. That's nice, what about the millions before that you never paid? I would hope others don't follow your path.

They have. In several cases the FAI have bailed them out with ground takeovers and "donations". I suppose that's not "outside assistance" to you though.

As posted before, we paid the creditors what we were ordered to pay. Sorry it wasn't as much as you'd like, but we did what we were told. As we have ever since.

[Charlie Darwin]

It took Sammon three years to up his game and he came from a top Irish team to a lower end SPL team so again I don't see the comparison of someone coming from the third tier of Scottish football after failing in the second tier.
The point is that he went straight into the Kilmarnock first team - the fact he didn't score many goals is irrelevant. By the time he hit his best form he was far too good for the SPL. Twigg has likewise improved as a player since signing for Rovers and is now at his peak. It's ludicrous to suggest he'd have no hope of playing for one of the lower teams in the SPL for whom a less decorated player from the same league has already succeeded and outgrown them.

[MariborKev]

To be fair, Sammon was a regular started for us at Derry.

[Straightstory]

Did you see that Colm Cooper chap for Kerry the other day? Or Henry Shefflin for Kilkenny two weeks ago? World class athletes playing in a world class stadium.
'World class athletes'? You must be joking. Big fish in a very, very small pond.

[nigel-harps1954]

'World class athletes'? You must be joking. Big fish in a very, very small pond.

I think the point is the media regards them as world class athletes rather than them actually being world class athletes. You don't see LOI players in Lucozade Sports ad's, or running around in Liverpool jerseys with their favourite player on the back for TV. The media milks the GAA and the GAA sits and lets it happen because both of them see the benifits. This doesn't happen with LOI.

[born2bwild]

'World class athletes'? You must be joking. Big fish in a very, very small pond.

Yeah...Look, I can't stand GAA but don't give me that 'big fish small pond' rubbish.

Are you arguing that the top GAA players could not make top football players?

Kevin Moran?

Point is, if these lads were living in Britain they wouldn't be gobbled up by the GAA...their obvious talents would be given to football.

What does it take to be a world-class athlete? Whatever the recipe is overall, in-built genetic ability is a basic ingredient, and the likes of Cooper and Shefflin have it, how can you argue otherwise?

If we didn't have the GAA here they'd be playing real football. Are you trying to tell me that they'd be sh1te at it?

[Acornvilla]

In fairness the only way we can compare the GAA lads as athletes is when they play the Aussies, and they get destroyed, and the lads from OZ never send their best players, I know there pro as opposed to the amateur Irish but they are still more often than not outclassed

[born2bwild]

This argument is becoming ridiculously hypothetical. Great crack.

International rules is a circus - just like that Dublin Super Cup - players playing together purely as a PR exercise. It tells you very little.

Anyway ,the Aussies are always poaching the top GAA players with the understanding that they can be made in to top Pros - remove the GAA from the basic equation and you've got a country full of blokes who want to kick a ball, what are they going to play? Rugby? Maybe, but since football is the most played game at underage in this country, you can bet they'd be playing football.

Do you reckon they'd be any good?

More to the point, do you reckon having a much larger pool of talent to draw on would improve the LoI's performance in Europe relative to say, Scotland????

[Acornvilla]

In fairness do you even need to ask that question? :D

[Charlie Darwin]

In fairness the only way we can compare the GAA lads as athletes is when they play the Aussies, and they get destroyed, and the lads from OZ never send their best players, I know there pro as opposed to the amateur Irish but they are still more often than not outclassed
Outclassed in terms of speed, strength and stamina but those are all really functions of being a full-time pro. In terms of technical ability, the Irish players always outclass the Aussies.

[Acornvilla]

Outclassed in terms of speed, strength and stamina but those are all really functions of being a full-time pro. In terms of technical ability, the Irish players always outclass the Aussies.
Like I said thou the Aussies don't send their best players.

Anyhow this is hardly worth discussing

[born2bwild]

Yeah but I think that the presence of the GAA is the main reason why we have a population comparable to Denmark's and Scotland's yet our domestic football league lags behind both of theirs - that's pretty much on topic for this thread.

[peadar1987]

Yeah but I think that the presence of the GAA is the main reason why we have a population comparable to Denmark's and Scotland's yet our domestic football league lags behind both of theirs - that's pretty much on topic for this thread.

I think the presence, and aggressiveness, of the GAA is a major factor (as popular as handball is in Denmark, I doubt the handball association has an official policy of institutional hatred towards other sports), but for me, the biggest one is still the fact that Ireland is pretty much England junior. Our TV programmes, our music, our food, our celebrity-obsessed culture, even, increasingly, the way we talk, all have to be the exact same as our bosses across the water. And the same goes for our football league. If it doesn't work the same way as in England, the Irish public won't be interested.

[mypost]

Irish people don't want to be English, they want to be and live like Americans.

[peadar1987]

Irish people don't want to be English, they want to be and live like Americans.

Well, there is the enthusiasm for voting in idiot politicians on soundbites and non-issues, and not caring if the country as a whole goes down the ****ter so long as they can keep their 60" plasma TV, and burn their skin to a crisp in the Canaries twice a year. America, or more precissely, peoples' perception of America, is a huge black hole sucking in the English-speaking world.

[born2bwild]

I think the presence, and aggressiveness, of the GAA is a major factor (as popular as handball is in Denmark, I doubt the handball association has an official policy of institutional hatred towards other sports), but for me, the biggest one is still the fact that Ireland is pretty much England junior. Our TV programmes, our music, our food, our celebrity-obsessed culture, even, increasingly, the way we talk, all have to be the exact same as our bosses across the water. And the same goes for our football league. If it doesn't work the same way as in England, the Irish public won't be interested.
A complete contradiction. You criticise the GAA yet you share their Anglophobia.

[peadar1987]

A complete contradiction. You criticise the GAA yet you share their Anglophobia.

Not at all. I am actually half English myself. My problem is with people who seem not to choose or reject these things based on their merits, but who will follow them simply because they're big and shiny and English. The people who refuse to consider that there could be any sort of attraction or excitement in a football league not run along Sky model lines are a perfect example.

[Charlie Darwin]

There's clearly not a lack of interest in soccer on the island. The problem is that it's not directed towards the domestic teams.

[TiocfaidhArmani]

In fairness the only way we can compare the GAA lads as athletes is when they play the Aussies, and they get destroyed, and the lads from OZ never send their best players, I know there pro as opposed to the amateur Irish but they are still more often than not outclassed


Did we not win the last two series v Australia? We certainly don't get destroyed.

[TiocfaidhArmani]

Not at all. I am actually half English myself. My problem is with people who seem not to choose or reject these things based on their merits, but who will follow them simply because they're big and shiny and English. The people who refuse to consider that there could be any sort of attraction or excitement in a football league not run along Sky model lines are a perfect example.

It's a shame the FAI didn't strike a deal with SKY like the IFA did. Would that maybe change attitude slightly if someone like SKY was seen to be taking an interest?

[TiocfaidhArmani]

A complete contradiction. You criticise the GAA yet you share their Anglophobia.

Remind me what sporting body invited Queen Elizabeth to their HQ recently? FAI? IRFU? The GAA has changed, you should change with them. Those days are gone.