England V Republic of Ireland - Thursday, 12th November 2020 - Friendly

[Kingdom]

I don't believe they do. You see kids playing football in Spain. It's about technique, first touch, passing, space. We don't teach that here in a lot of places. I hear a lot of "Get rid of it" if a kid gets the ball in defence and is under pressure. Let him make a mistake. I see a lot of parents and coaches advocating getting the ball back to front as quickly as possible and I see a lot of kids praised because they can kick it the furthest and kick it the hardest. None of that promotes a culture that will allow us to play the type of football Kenny wants.

I actually think the GAA hurts us a lot in this respect. Not in terms of taking players or some of the other stuff you hear. I mean in terms of how they coach kids to play their games. They tell kids to get the ball/sliotar and get it forward as quick as possible. The further you can kick/hit it the better. And they are right to do that because that's the best way to play their games. But then the next night kids come to football training and they're being taught to look for space. That sometimes you have to go sideways or backwards with the ball. And at 8, 9, 10 years of age, it's very hard to reconcile those approaches.

You're absolutely correct in your comparisons, and no better person for you to have quoted in reply with that post. because that's the real problem. "Ah last it in there to Johnny for God sake".

however, that has changed to a large degree in the top level schoolboy football in Dublin certainly.
Big kids will always dominate, human nature, but proper football is being coached as a priority across all levels of schoolboy football,

[Bielsa´s irish]

Lionel, thanks man, I needed to read someone writing that, because quite honestly I've read some absolute horse manure on here, on social media and on WhatsApp over the last 24 hours, and maybe it's the current climate, maybe it's Irish fans, but there is waffle (which I'm prone to myself) and conjecture, and then there's your post which is perfect.

I couldnt watch last night's game, but saw the two line-ups and about 10 mins altogether. I'm reading people writing that the system isn't working, the new approach isn't working, all because we've not scored in a few games, or won in a few games. so bloody what. It's so obvious the amount of clowns who don't have any concept of what it is to support a club, because now more than ever, these things don't change overnight. Anyone calling for Kenny's head is a ****tard. It's that simple. This isn't a 1 year project, 2 year project. It's a generational project - and it must be!

It's almost as if we collectively haven't properly realised just how bad Irish football completely has got. It's done, we've allowed it become this way. the rap sheet is so long: By neglecting our league; neglecting all the aspects of Irish football in order to serve the Senior team; by allowing our senior managers to be paid Millions (Millions!) every year in order to try and fluke a qualification, when at the same time countries of our scale do so on a pittance. Having no identity. All this garbage about Euro 2012, Euro 2016, it almost makes me sick.

The Euro 2012 finals was the culmination of 4 years of the nastiest ugliest football that was very rarely polished as decent. As a football fan, under Trapatoni there was no saving grace, the football was horrific, acceptable at the start to try and solidify and then develop, except there was no developing - and it became like that because we as patrons of football allowed it. I appreciate that if you're an event junkie, the trap era was great. The legendary stories with JD, the train trips, Gydna & Sopot whatever etc.

And Euro 16. The irony is that the performances there was for the most part when we tried to play football, pretty decent. It was only when we didn't trust ourselves (Belgium and France) and reverted to ONeill type (giving the ball back to the opposition) that it turned to ****. But qualification, man, that was one horrid ****show. I mean, I understand that we (me most of all) sometimes underestimate actual good teams, and overestimate actual weak teams, but that group, and those performaces, were absolutely disgusting. Say what you want about the 4 points against Germany, but we were horrific for 85 minutes of that game. We were worse in Dublin. and despite those 4 points we still only came third, because of the type of football we played is pure flip-of-a-coin stuff. Poland home, Georgia away, Scotland in Hampden, Scotland in Lansdowne.
Think of the performances generally in the following WC campaign. Serbia away, Serbia home, Austria home, Wales home, both Georgia games "**** me Tommy, i think I'm gonnae be sick". We got exactly what we deserved from the play-off. **** all, because there's no game plan. No idea of what to do with the football.

I'm struggling to contain some semblence of rationality here, but I suppose I can only equate the John Doe line from Seven where Pitt's character refers to "victims" and Spacey almost chokes on his own vomit when he hears them being described as such. The things that really get to me, it's championing the qualification of Euro 2012 and using the draw in Moscow as the catalyst. That was a shameful performance. We decamped onto our 18yd line, like we were Andorra, offering no offensive threat whatsoever. It was reminiscent of Liechtenstein against us in 95 where we lampooned our own failure.

Anyone who tries to justify playing the type of football we played under Martin O'Neill, and latterly under Mick McCarthy deserves a placement on Rockall in the winter. I never, ever want to see an Irish team go to Gibraltar and hoof the ball from tip off out of play for a throw-in. Because that's what will continue to happen.
To say that the "Kenny experiment" isn't working, and that other Irish manager's would have come away from the English match last night with a result is laughable. Actually, that's wrong, it's not laughable, it's dangerous. Under previous managers, with better players admittedly (and it's fair both to previous groups, but also the current group to acknowledge that) we played a rudimentary percentage football that was hit it long, chase down and hope for a break. Football has developed so much in 20 years, with the small percentages meanign so much, that our gameplan of giving the ball back to the opposition as much as possible deliberately, just won't work.
There are people on this site who are essentially advocating a return to Jack Charlton football. You could argue they're advocating to use the style of Gaelic football or rugby and use brute force as a way of getting results. They are forgetting a lot. The biggest of the lot is that we don't have the players now, that we had during Jack's complete tenure, including the end. They were players who disliked the system they played, but crucially when they got the ball back in the opposition half, they had the skill, guile etc to do something with it.

The only thing - singular - that is working, is the schoolboys and underage sides. The LoI is broken. The Mens team is broken. the Fai as an organisation broken.
There was a discussion in the Ireland forum possibly 18 months ago, and it essentially boiled down to the crap seniors maybe qualifying for a championship and the core group of 21s qualifying for their Euros. Everyone with possibly a couple of exceptions, took the handy choice. If the 21s qualify - they should do - then we absolutely should send the strongest team possible there. Idah, O'Shea, Molumby, Connolly and two keepers. They could do quite well, and then when it's over, bring them en-masse through to the senior squad.

Not a great example size-wise, but think back to what was probably our best campaign, the 92 campaign, where we absolutely demolished Turkey home and away. By the end of the following campaign they were beating top European teams, and it started a process that ended up with them coming third in the world by 2002.

We need to take some hits, some more hits, and then a few more. The North's most recent great period came about after 18 months of horror under Michael O'Neill. ignore last night - the performances (45 mins in Dublin vs Finns aside) haven't been that bad. But whoever sanctioned that game last night, needs their head examining. I understand the alternative was a game in Bosnia, but really, that would have been a more prudent choice. Last night was unwinnable, in theory and in practice, for the team, and for the management.

We can discuss players strengths and abilities until the cows come home. Cull the players who consistently don't make it happen on match-day. because it's happening consistently.

I agree with most of your stuff, I think MON was better than Trap and Tardelli, couse the italians fell out with a lot better good players that is unforgivable, didnt develop the nat team going forward..
I agree MON played better in the EURO than the qualies. Qualies are really hard you have a country over your shoulders.

What I agree with Roy Keane is you have to play with urgency and a bit of a physical discussion or football fight and do the fancy stuff as well.

We can do both yesterday Grealish only comitted like 6 or 7 fouls to get possession again.

Play expansive football and put them under pressure I say we need both

[Real ale Madrid]

Great stuff there Kingdom, very passionate. Keep the faith.

One thing you touched on with the u21 Finals clashing with the WC quals I doubt if we send our best outfit to it. If we get there mind.

[tommy_c12000]

Agree with Kingdoms sentiments. Long term project this one. Even though admittedly English game was very difficult to sit through. Only one competitive game thus far. All the rest merely friendlies. Some positive signs of style change, hopefully more penetration will come in due course. My only gripe with Kenny so far is why is Horgan in the squad. Really odd to me considering his below average career, Dundalk connection I assume?

I will comfortably give Kenny 2 tournaments to qualify for, and if not showing promising signs by then, the experiment has failed.

Surprised with POS attitude (or perhaps I’m not...), he’s the first person to cut down anyone with snap judgements on young prospects. Kenny only has had one competitive game and the team will be in transition for at least 2 years. Relax. The experiment is only in its preliminary stage.

[Razors left peg]

Fair play Kingdom, you cut through the bullsh1t very well. Great posts.

I still think for Kennys sake we need good performances and results in the next 2. Performances up to now have been good, bar last night. Feels like if he didnt have bad luck he'd have no luck so hopefully something changes for him.

I still think by this time next year we could be a very good team.

[elatedscum]

Thought what kingdom wrote was very good.

There are bits that I haven’t liked, in the way we’ve played - it’s like the players have struggled to be able to handle the nuance required. Understanding when you need to press and when you need to drop deep into a shell (there was a real lack of pressing against England). Equally, knowing when to be patient in possession and when to increase tempo. Knowing when to build from the back and when not to. Too often against England, from a kick out, we played 12 passes between the back 4 and the keeper and a holding midfielder, before eventually either the centre half or keeper was put under too much pressure and eventually hit a ball straight into touch, or long to an opposition player.

I always think it’s worth looking at exactly how the ball is lost. If you can get to the point where you’re making progressive and intelligent passes and they don’t quite come off, that’s positive but if you end up just being under pressure in your own third when you have possession, then you’re in huge trouble.

Overall the lack of penetration and clear cut chances are a worry, but that’s been an issue for a long time, and it’s gotten worse since Wes retired...

Saying all that, the performances from the 21s were generally very good and they really had the mix of playing good passing football, great work ethic and constant pressure of many irish sides of old, scoring from set pieces, willingness to be direct and exploit weaknesses when they saw them along with patience and great creativity. If he can get a 21’s side there, I really believe he can do the same with a senior team.

The first three windows have been a disaster in terms of external circumstances. The first window you had players who were doing preseason and weren’t fit. The second window you had about 15 players lost to either Covid or injuries. In the game against England, we were missing Coleman, Stevens, Egan (who was a huge loss, he was great in the first part of the game), McCarthy, Arter, Robinson, Connolly and Long - With Browne now missing too.

It’s so hard to build a functional side when so many of your players are constantly changing. And the ones you might want aren’t available at all. All of which extends the time required to make transformative changes...

I just hope that performances and results turn around quick enough that the players don’t lose faith...

[Stuttgart88]

Say what you want Kingdom but we performed perfectly as a team of our disposition should do in order to get those results against a top team like Germany.
That and the first half v France was O'Neill at his best, works of art.. The rest was mostly shiite though. We now cannot play the same game v England as we did v Slovakia or similar and realistically hope to get a result.

I was going to say I agreed with almost all of Kingdom's post - despite the selfish and unpatriotic conclusion - except for the assessment of the Germany games. Germany away was an exemplary away performance against a top top side.

[Stuttgart88]

Fwiw I know I've already said this but I saw him twice and thought he did very well. But it's all relative really.

Really?

From the Caoimhin Kelleher thread:

And bazunu is far from the great white hope no one has really seen that much of him. And I saw him a couple of times for rovers

Purely commenting on what I have seen of kelleher, and the limited amount of time i saw of Bazunu cant justify anything either way. I think the whole thing of him playing 16 has sorta clouded everyones judgement, some getting a little bit giddy.

[Jovial Rambler]

Spot on Kingdom, great post.
Imo our problem has been with the managers we appoint. None that i can recall have really added any value to the team.
It is a managers job to take a group of players and get them to perform together, at a level higher than their individual talents suggest.
I cant remember a manager adding sufficient value for us in the way that MON did for NI for example. I think we have actually had the opposite for far too long.
Kenny may be that guy, and hopefully he is. He is certainly doing it differently to the last 12 years, which is most welcome.
Hopefully he gets time and support to fully implement his ideas and methods. Hopefully he can get the players performing collectively better than they are individually.

[Fixer82]

But qualification, man, that was one horrid ****show. I mean, I understand that we (me most of all) sometimes underestimate actual good teams, and overestimate actual weak teams, but that group, and those performaces, were absolutely disgusting. Say what you want about the 4 points against Germany, but we were horrific for 85 minutes of that game. We were worse in Dublin. and despite those 4 points we still only came third, because of the type of football we played is pure flip-of-a-coin stuff. Poland home, Georgia away, Scotland in Hampden, Scotland in Lansdowne.


.

I disagree.
Thought we played really well at home to Germany. They had some chances early on and just before our goal that they could’ve converted but overall I thought the game plan was good.

Away to Scotland could’ve gone either way and, if it were in Dublin, Scotland would’ve had a man sent off early on for a last man tackle on Shane Long.

Against Scotland in Dublin we were the better team and they scored due to a jammy deflection.

Against Poland at home we played well and conceded due to a Robbie Brady error.

I thought away to Germany we were excellent and their goal was a cracker that David Forde could do nothing about.

In all those games, Ireland never gave up and it showed in late goals against Poland and Germany.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

There's been a huge defence of Kenny in the media and by many fans. He's coming from the League of Ireland and he plays passing football, this has gained him a hardcore following who will defend him no matter what happens on the pitch. That's fair enough, we all want Kenny to do well and playing football instead of long ball stuff is much nicer to watch. It can't be denied though, the start of Kenny's reign has not gone well.

When we look at where we've come from in the recent past, there have been some horrible performances and results but we've not been as bad as has been painted in defence of Kenny. We reached the 2016 European championships and acquitted ourselves very well. We got to the play offs for the World Cup 2018, yes we got a bad beating in the second leg against Denmark but we came second in our group ahead of Wales and Austria. In the most recent campaign, we let slip a good position in the group but we were still very close to qualifying. The last game against Denmark, where a win would have got us through, was a much better performance than anything under Kenny so far. We dominated that match and created a host of opportunities. That's where we're coming from, we're not minnows, we've qualified or come close to qualifying for all the most recent major tournaments.

Kenny had a chance to qualify us for the Euros, a poor enough Slovakia team beat us and got there instead. We've had a series of poor results against teams that would be described as average to poor. The first good team we played was England and we got absolutely destroyed. We have scored 1 goal in 7 games and that was from a corner. This cannot be all brushed over because we pass the ball more.

It's not all doom and gloom though. There have been times when we've played well and have created chances. We've had a good few players missing through injury and covid but I suppose all teams have. It takes time to bed in a new style of play. A good few young players have got game time and showed promise.

The possibility that Kenny is not up to the task has to be considered though. It may be a case that we can play a passing style and for it to work but Kenny hasn't the capability to implement it correctly. It may be a case that we don't have the players to play that style. Whatever it is, Kenny has to get some results. We can't give up the chance of qualifying for major tournaments and slide further down the rankings in the hope that it eventually comes good for Kenny. That's not going to work. It is early days though, so Kenny deserves a chance. He has two good opportunities coming up, let's see how he gets on with those and how he builds for next year.

[barney]

You're absolutely correct in your comparisons, and no better person for you to have quoted in reply with that post. because that's the real problem. "Ah last it in there to Johnny for God sake".

however, that has changed to a large degree in the top level schoolboy football in Dublin certainly.
Big kids will always dominate, human nature, but proper football is being coached as a priority across all levels of schoolboy football,

I hope that's true and another poster has said it too so I'll take your word for it. I coach young kids and the amount of times I hear "get rid of it" or the amount of praise lads get for kicking it far and hard makes me die a little bit inside. And it's from coaches and parents. Anyway, don't mean to drag the thread down this rabbit hole but I do believe it's very hard for Kenny to do what he's trying to do from the top down.

I admire what he's trying and as long as he's being competitive I'd keep him in the job for at least another campaign. I badly want him to succeed but, sadly, I don't think he will. He's trying to change the way we've played for as long as I can remember (35 years) and he's trying to do it with the worst bunch of players we've had in that time.

[pineapple stu]

We reached the 2016 European championships and acquitted ourselves very well.

I do broadly agree with you, but I think on this point, the batterings by Belgium and France in 2016 were on par with the batterings we took across 2012. We then drew 1-1 against a Sweden side who didn't manage a single shot on target, and were fortunate enough to play Italy's B team when they had already qualified. Does that count as acquitting ourselves very well? I'm not so sure it does, and in that case it's just another point on the steadily downwards slope we've been on since what - 2002?

Remember at Euro 2016 we had the oldest squad at the tournament by a distance. It's not so easy to compare the two qualifying campaigns because we've lost so many players since then and the replacements just aren't coming through - Given, Keane, O'Shea, Hoolahan, Walters, Long. Who's replaced them, even as squad players? Travers, Idah, Duffy, Byrne, Connolly, Curtis? That's a much wider structural issue in Irish football which is outside Kenny's control (though he's done what he can in terms of raising Irish football's profile and technical focus at club and U21 level)

As I say, broadly I agree with what you've put in the post (which is a lot!), but I think those points are worth being clarified.

[Bungle]

Kenny is getting a lot of unwarranted praise and some of it is patronising. We keep the ball for 30 or 40 seconds and it's mentioned as some kind of cultural shift (I suppose in the context of MON's regime that is fair).

My basic expectation right now would be that we make efforts to play football and we are hard to beat. I think under Kenny we are trying to play football and that is positive. We have the players to pass it around for a minute or so without really hurting decent teams. If we can get to a point where we can play good football against the Slovakias and Finlands of this world and beat them, then that is how we can judge Kenny. In a few years with the level of talent coming through, I would be hopeful that we could get to the level of being a solid pot 2 side. Right now, we are probably one of the poorest pot 3 sides and if we blag our way into pot 2 for the wc qualifiers, it's almost laughable.

I do think we would be better served using the wc qualifiers as a launchpad for ec 2024 when we might begin to see the fruits of our quality young players coming through. The Brady of this world are a waste of space and the young players should be brought into replace them. The likes of Duffy have been good servants to us, but right now it is obvious that aside from his poor form, he is very unsuited to the way we are aiming to play. I like Randolph but Bazunu needs to come in for games. No guarantee the young players will make it, but I would be shocked if we don't get a few very good players.

Things can't get much worse but I would accept a tough year or two over a plucky 1-1 in Copenhagen with a late Duffy equalizer, if by the time of the next qualifiers, we had a young talented team with a coherent way of playing who have 8-12 caps to their name ready to take on good teams. That will get the public excited and that is Stephen's remit.

My father is in his 90s. He is what Giles would call a "football man". He has coached at a decent level and followed Ireland home and away for years. Towards the end of MON's regime, he said he didn't want to go to the games anymore because he said even though the results were decent, it was an insult to football. Physically it was a challenge for him walking to the ground and he rathered watching them at home with my mam. I happen to agree with him, even though I will keep going when possible again. The national team is an important part of the country, but part of that is us trying to show the world that we aspire to be something rather than hard to play against and actually try to play football. Believe it or not, Ireland was once respected for producing good footballers who could play. Let's aim to get that reputation back.

[Kingdom]

I’ve coached kids in the age groups just before elite level, 15 years apart. I’ve seen kids football at 3 very different age groups, in 3 very different countries for enough of a time to make a valid comparison.

Irish kids are every bit their equal of their European peers.
The one area where maybe they are behind is in the physical stakes, body maturity if you will. I have no concerns about kids coming through in Ireland.

[Closed Account 2]

So, how exactly would you adapt? All well and good calling for adaptation. I've actually told you clearly I am up for adaptation, and spelt out exactly what adaptation I'd like to see. More than you've done. The only part where you really make sense is in saying "how we set up and reduce space between the lines". That's where I think having a playmaker and a 9 will help, as well as having "busier" full backs and centre-mids. But how would you set up and reduce space between the lines? And in once sense we actually need to increase space between lines, the opposition lines.

The first thing our fraud of a manager needs to do is instill some basic defensive organisation into the team. Every team he's been up against looks like scoring multiple times against us. The possible exception might have been Slovakia, who afforded us a huge amount of respect (perhaps they were under the impression we were still managed by someone with a functioning brain).

Kenny seems fixated with pseudo tiki taka, we don't have Xavi and Iniesta in the middle of the park so a possession based passing game is a bit of a risk. We also don't have defenders who naturally press and try to win the ball high up the pitch. He's myopic and has misjudged the strengths of the players available to him, instead of adjusting his "tactic" (notably not plural) he's trying to bend the ability of our players - this is doomed to fail.

Any half decent coach would have adjusted the tactics by now. We could have tried playing 3 center backs and one (possibly two) defensively minded midfielders in front of them. We have reasonably quick wide players who could be used a wing backs giving some defensive cover, but also providing options for passing (an "outball" so to speak). Make ourselves organised and hard(er) to score against.

In this system we wouldn't necessarily need technically brilliant playermakers (which we don't really have). We would just need solid organised pros (like Kavanagh and Keith Andrews in years gone by) and then pace from wide players, which we have to an extent anyway.

The problem is Kenny won't try any of this because he is a one track pony who is fixated with his single tactical approach. People backing him to perform some sort of big overhaul of Irish footballing approaches are deluded. Football is a big sport in Ireland, but so is Rugby and so is GAA; too long in the doldrums with Kelly will see football lose out to other sports, and we'll see more and more early international retirements, or players not declaring with us.

[pineapple stu]

. I like Randolph but Bazunu needs to come in for games. No guarantee the young players will make it, but I would be shocked if we don't get a few very good players.

Things can't get much worse.

The problem with this is it's so easy to throw out a suggestion like this because it'll never really be challenged. If Kenny dropped Randolph - who hasn't done much wrong - and threw in a teenager with a handful of appearances in the English third tier (with more than his share of howlers too), and if another howler occurred, he'd be getting stick from people for being stupid enough to play an untried teenager in a game. It's no-win.

Oh, and things can always get worse.

The first thing our fraud of a manager needs to do is instill some basic defensive organisation into the team.

Hold on - we've conceded one goal a game on average, including three against a very good England side.

We've kept clean sheets in half our games (one of which was over 120 minutes)

I'm sure the defence can be improved, but it's strange to highlight it instead of what is, to me, the more glaring issue of the lack of chances at the other end

[Closed Account 2]

Hold on - we've conceded one goal a game on average, including three against a very good England side.

We've kept clean sheets in half our games (one of which was over 120 minutes)

I'm sure the defence can be improved, but it's strange to highlight it instead of what is, to me, the more glaring issue of the lack of chances at the other end

We have looked very flakey at the back against everyone we've played except Slovakia. A 5-0 or 6-0 wouldn't have flattered England at all. Finland played us twice, home and away, and created quite a few opportunities in both games. Some of the goals we've conceded have been comical.

[pineapple stu]

I don't think we've looked particularly flaky tbh. Not any more than usual anyway. The only "comical" goal we've conceded was in Helsinki. Bulgaria didn't create a huge amount either.

It's still not the priority for me. Midfield is very slow and we have no forwards worth talking about. If both those areas were fixed (the latter is much harder of course) then the defence will improve because we're taking the pressure off them. Midfield is my main worry tbh. We need someone to get on the ball and play it on quickly. I don't see who that is yet

[Bungle]

[QUOTE=pineapple stu;2057088]The problem with this is it's so easy to throw out a suggestion like this because it'll never really be challenged. If Kenny dropped Randolph - who hasn't done much wrong - and threw in a teenager with a handful of appearances in the English third tier (with more than his share of howlers too), and if another howler occurred, he'd be getting stick from people for being stupid enough to play an untried teenager in a game. It's no-win.

Oh, and things can always get worse.


Can definitely see that point. Like I said I like Randolph. He's a good keeper. My point is that Bazunu could be our number 1 for the next 12-15 years. He should play for the u21s as long as they have a shot at qualification and if they qualify should go to the tournament. However, I would love to see him begin to get game time for the national team be it in friendlies or in games against minnows.

We need to accept that our young players will make mistakes and be prepared for that. Dara O'Shea for example won't turn into a top centre half overnight, but the experiences that he gains over the next 2-3 years with Ireland could help him towards his goal of becoming one. The same with all our talents.