I hope this thread doesn't fall foul of our administrators. I couldn't find anywhere else to put it!
As a Waterford United supporter, I was, naturally enough, horrified by our 8-1 mauling at the hands of Shamrock Rovers recently. Apart from the embarrasment, I was deeply shocked at the obvious gap between The Blues and the best team in the land. This got me thinking though...
A couple of weeks prior to that hammering, Waterford, with a weaker team, beat Castleview Celtic of Cork in the Munster Senior Cup 5-1. Ok, what's the connection you may well ask?
Back in the day (well, my day at least, which was about 20 years ago) I was a moderately talented right-sided midfielder, or so I thought. I was always the best player on my club's underage teams, and represented the county side all the way up to u19, and trialled for Ireland schoolboys, but never got into a squad. I was watched by several English clubs, but they showed no interest. So, good-ish, but not great.
At about 19 I made the step up to Munster Senior League (MSL). Quickly it became apparent that I was right at my limit, and perhaps even out of my depth. I hung around for a few seasons, had the occasional stand out performance, but mediocre would be the best description. Coming up against hardened MSL players, and good, solid MSL clubs showed me just how good even that level of football was, and how good you had to be to do well in that league.
I suspect many of the Castleview players who got murdered by Waterford United would comfortably hold their own in the MSL. And yet they were nowhere near good enough to even mount a single defence-stretching attack against Waterford.
So this Waterford team, which slaughtered Castleview, go to Shamrock Rovers and lose 8-1. And by all accounts it could have been any number. 13 or 14 goals may not have flattered them. And yet rewind the clock a few months, and Shamrock Rovers are getting hammered by Ruben kazan 3-1 at home and 4-1 away.
In turn Ruben Kazan, in the next round, get beaten home and away by Olympiakos.
Now, Olympiakos are no mugs, and are capable of a good result against most teams. However, even their most blinkered fan would worry about what the score would be if they came up against Real Madrid or Barca when they are really in the mood.
My point is probably no more than "top pro footballers are really rather good". But it is just how good they really are that amazes me. It's like a different game.
I thought I was an ok footballer. I was rubbish really.
Last edited by gormacha; 01/03/2012 at 1:59 PM. Reason: typo
Moved to World Football.
Interesting read; thanks for that gormacha. Let's put it this way: there's maybe 50000 kids in Ireland of any one age. Half of those are girls, and let's 40% of the boys would never play football being from die-hard GAA areas or something (this is probably generous). That leaves you with 15000 boys playing football. Pro footballers have a career span of about 20 years. That's 300,000 Irish men who might play football in the age group of pro footballers. Take the top 3 players we have at this time, say Given, Keane and Duff (you might argue for Dunne or others, but these is fairly inconsequential. That means that those three players are 1 in 100,000 players. Now, picture yourself in a packed Croke Park. The odds that you're the smartest guy (or the tallest, or the funniest, handsomist, best at scrabble, whatever) in that stadium are slightly higher than the odds that you're as good as Duff, Keane and Given. And in the grand scheme of things, they're players who maybe were in the world top ten at their respective positions for a couple of years at the peak of their abilities. Not one of them would get into the Barca team. That's how good Barcelona are.
It's all relative. Last year Fabregas was probably the best midfielder in England, now he's 4th best at his club
About 15-20 years ago a news article broke about a Dublin born footballer who was born in 1966. Quick check of 'Irish football handbook' later showed it could only be one of 4 players. So only 4 players from Dublin born that year were good enough to play LOI premier. That's insanely small percentage
And the higher up the football ladder you go, the tinier the percentages get.
For me there'd be four key metrics - "footballing brain", technical ability, physical conditioning and also how much or how little experience a player has at the highest levels of the game. The very top players nowadays probably have to have the best of all four.
The conditioning / fitness side of it is probably the biggest difference between any two levels / leagues - every time a player makes a "step up" generally the first thing he notices is the increase in tempo / having less time on the ball etc.
Although if you only have one of the four you might still do alrightTerry Phelan got by on having lightning pace and little else - a player like Patsy Freyne for Cork City didn't prioritise fitness etc. but was a very good reader of the game.
I think a case has to be made for intelligence, but obviously not the book-learning type. A couple of Gardner’s 9 Types of Intelligence apply:
Bodily-Kinaesthetic Intelligence (mind and body work in harmony to master the use of objects and develop physical skills; timing is also part of this). Things that are innate for top pros like the ability to dribble, control a ball in a single touch, play a split-second through ball, or break the offside trap can be coached into mere mortals – but to a much lesser degree.
Spatial Intelligence (generally being able to think in three dimensions, and usually associated with artists and architects, but spatial reasoning and awareness are part of it). Paul McGrath always seemed to play with built-in radar; good keepers know when to push a ball around the post and when to pull back their hand, the Arsenal offside trap played like they were tied to a rope. I was an ojusly bad player* (left mid, but never played above seven-a-sides in school!) but there was one guy I could pass to without looking – we developed a spatial understanding of each others’ moves. Again, it can be coached, but it’s the top pros who instinctively have this.
*Still am... all I have in common with Paul McGrath is his knees (legacy of another sport).
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- E Tattsyrup.
I play with a lad who was on the books with a professional club (Championship side) in England before he did his ACL and that was the end of his football career.
He is the best player I have ever played with/against, it's frightening how good he is (compared to level of football I play atl). Control, shooting technique and his ability to pick the right pass is scary and it's a good job he takes it steady and plays in 2nd gear. I wonder if Paul McShane popped down how would he fare?!
"If God had meant football to be played in the air, he'd have put grass in the sky." Brian Clough.
You'll NEVER beat the Irish.......you'll just draw with us instead!!!
I've played with/against several guys who had their careers cut short by niggling injuries in their youth.
One was a centre-back who played underage football for Finland and the youth team of Inter Turku. He who was easily the best footballer in our group, even though he insisted he was a poor player compared to the guys he played with for Finland and Inter Turku. He couldn't really run 'cause of ACL damage but even at his 'limited' speed, he could fly past most of us. I've played with a guy who was in the youth teams of some Second or Third Division in Denmark. He was a Zidane-type of player and, again, he would waltz all around us. At the moment, I'm playing with one guy in his late thirties who was once in the youth teams of Crewe and played against Robbie Fowler. He had a trial at Cambridge United but didn't make it. He has some hamstring problem and can't move well at all but he has a great touch, great pass and a great footballing brain. Another guy we play with is, I think, only 20 or 21. He was in the Portuguese youth teams but he has terrible knees. He said he's had ten operations in total on them and his right knee is actually made of plastic. Again, his mobility isn't the best but he's just a natural talent. He can pull off all sorts of tricks and he's got a great shot, can score from almost anywhere in the half.
With these guys, it's amazing how good they are and you have to wonder how far they could've gone if it weren't for the injuries.
I used to play five-a-side football about a year or two ago with Shane O'Neill, who was with Bray at the time. You could see that he was taking it easy in these games but, when he wanted to, he'd pick up the ball and dance past five or six lads, run 40m and smash it home. Even if he was only in first or second gear, he was the best player and, when he turned it on full whack, he'd destroy the other team single-handedly. And, with all due respect, he's not pulling up any trees in the LOI.
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Yeah something I've wondered. Anthony Stokes was probably the highest talented player ive of known to see(I used to play with shels) but I can't remember him that well. I've played against quite a fewcurrent lower league in england or loi players who keep in mind would still be pretty young so havent really become major players yet, however these guys were far and away the best players ive seen. one player one of my good mates now playing in the loi, was 12 when we'd be playing matches on the green against 16/17 year old footballers and he would just rip the **** out of them with skill and touch, he scored in the leinster senior league like 35 goals at 16 effortlessly, yet I don't think he'll be a standout LOI player. kinda makes you wonder how good the likes of journeymen players like kevin kilbane and the likes musta been at youth level?
I always wondered when I saw clubs like Kildare and Kilkenny have to line out with a half-empty bench what would have happened if I'd volunteered to fill one of those spots.
Well the first thing is, I wouldn't get onto the pitch, but I think I definitely would have been embarrassed. Although I'm a full back, so I could probably get away with just hoofing the ball.
The biggest thing that stands out for me is the time on the ball, as others have mentioned. There's also the sheer consistency required. Kicking a ball about with the lads, I'd be fairly well-regarded in terms of skill and control, and I'd take a crap touch, or miskick or -control a ball baybe 15-20% of the time. Even the lowliest professionals are harangued if they do this even 1% of the time. And that's not even taking into account my fitness, or the amount of time I'm out of position.
I think certain positions are easier than others though. I think defenders can be coached into solid players by drilling in a set of rules. Hold the line for offsides, don't ball-watch, show a winger the touchline, don't dive in, don't try any tricky **** when you're the last man, etc. Attacking players seem to need to be a cut above the rest in a whole host of skills that, to use the cliché, can't be coached.
This book by Matthew Syed is supposed to be very good.
Basically it says that the key to reaching the top echelons is 10,000 hours of proper practice.
Craft Toe Poke and I often talk about how the key to making it or not in a sport like football is very fine margins. If Paul Ince had never been offered the Blackburn job, Keith Andrews might be an uncapped player in Milton Keynes still.
Does anyone remember the chapter in Fever Pitch on Gus Caesar? It was hilarious - Gus must have been the best guy in 30 in his class as a kid, then probably best out of 1,000 in his school, then probably got on the district team picked out of thousands, then the county team out of tens of thousands, then an arsenal contract, then into the reserves out of all the players in the club, then into the first team where he is shown up as sh1t!
I felt the same. I was in my scool badminton team and we were quite good - I lost in 3 Leinster finals at different age groups. But as an individual I always got beaten easily by Leinster's best. Leinster's best used to get beaten easily by Ulster's best, who got beaten easily by the best in Britain, who thenmselves would get beaten easily by south east asians.
Came into the thread to post this. One of my favourite pieces of football writing.Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
And did he know he was good? He must have done, and justifiably so. Think about it. At school he must have been much, much better than his peers, so he gets picked for the school team, and then some representative side, South London Boys or what have you; and he's still better than anyone else in the team, by miles, so the scouts come to watch, and he's offered an apprenticeship not with Fulham or Brentford or even West Ham but with the mighty Arsenal. And it's still not over, even then, because if you look at any First Division youth team of five years ago you won't recognize most of the names, because most of them have disappeared.The England selectors, like the Arsenal fans, are beginning to trust Arsenal's youth policy implicitly, and Gus gets a call-up even though he isn't in the first team regularly. But never mind why, he's in, he's recognised as one of the best twenty or so young players in the whole country.
Now at this point Gus could be forgiven for relaxing his guard a little. He's young, he's got talent, he's committed to the life he's picked, and at least some of the self-doubt that plagues everyone with long-shot dreams must have vanished by now. At this stage you have to rely on the judgment of others (I was relying on the judgments of friends and agents and anyone I could find who would read my stuff and tell me it was OK); and when those others include two Arsenal managers and an England coach then you probably reckon that there isn't much to worry about.The full extract is here: http://remotestorage.blogspot.com/20...long-tail.htmlThat's it. End of story. He's at the club for another three or four years, but he's very much the last resort centre-back, and he must have known, when George bought Bould and then Linighan and then Pates, with Adams and O'Leary already at the club, that he didn't have much of a future-- he was the sixth in line for two positions. He was given a free transfer at the end of the 90/91 season, to Cambridge United; but within another couple of months they let him go too, to Bristol City, and a couple of months after that Bristol City let him go to Airdrie. To get where he did, Gus Caesar clearly had more talent than nearly everyone of his generation (the rest of us can only dream about having his kind of skill) and it still wasn't quite enough.
Last edited by thischarmingman; 03/03/2012 at 5:04 PM.
I think it was a nightmare showing by Caesar in the 1987(?) League Cup final when Arsenal lost 3-2 to Luton that prompted that chapter.
I vaguely recall some guy trying to become a professional footballer in his mid twenties by training with the Reading academy, and paying some of the best coaches available to bring him up to the level required. Think he called it "the beautiful dream" or something like that.
He was on Sky Sports News once after playing for the academy side, and the lads were all laughing at him. Dunno what happened to him, or even if he finished the year with them.
Anyone watching Barca just move 6 up against Leverkusen?...
Yeah I remember that, this is a great thread. Anybody got info on him?
Add to my earlier post, once played with a lad who would have been considered alright but wasn't really that good beyond the level we were playing. I was better than him , anyway I left football and I found out that the guy eventually got capped at under 16 level for Ireland. Anything is possible, but most don't put in the dedication required.
Last edited by irishultra; 25/06/2012 at 6:46 PM.
I remember having a great conversation once with a guy during his 2 years at Arsenal. He spent some time training with the senior and reserve sides. What he said was very surprising. He was saying the skills levels between academy and seniors were not all that different(ok, taking out the odd player who was just exceptional) but he said what made the seniors even better was their ability to read a game.
He said that playing with the reserves and in training you would have much more time on the ball than in the academy where it was flat out. He said the step up to the reserves was more about awareness than skill. You had to know what you were going to do two passes before you got the ball because the moment it came to you, the opposing teams first instinct isn't to tackle, it was to close off the passing routes.
He often used to talk about Senderos. He said, at the time, that he was hopeless in comparison to everything they had at the club. But his ability to read the game was unbelievable.
Practice makes perfect, or at least quite good. Playing any sport, there will always be some who put way more time into it. Yes there is an element of natural talent but what makes a top player at anything will usually be the individual's sheer single-mindedness. I've never played football at any level, but I do play snooker and pool at amateur level in my local leagues. The best amateur players spend 8-9 hours a day practising and live off odd jobs, prize money and dole money. I do it maybe one night a week with the rest of the team, and that usually involves a fair amount of drinking in between games so maybe 1 hour total table time. I think if I had to do 8-9 hours a day I'd go absolutely insane.
"Life is like a hair on a toilet seat. Sooner or later you are bound to get pi$$ed off."
"In this league, a draw is sometimes as good as a win" - Steve Morison
And lord knows what the waistline / liver would look like
Great Thread
I was in a football academy in 1999-2000 in Cork. In the same group of lads who were there was Kevin Waters who went on to play LOI he had the most gifted left foot I have ever seen but kinda drifted in and out of games. Damien O'Rourke who went to play for Cork City and now plays with Mervue. And Damien Delaney was there too, he left to sign for Leicester and played premier league in England and has gone on to get Irish Caps.
The thing that stood out for me with these lads was the way they read the game and the commitment they put into it. Also it was the be all and end all for them. Most of us there had a fall back after the year course but these lads had that desire to make it. I dont think they were streets ahead of any of the other lads on the course in talent but they wanted it more.
I think in regards of McShane and others like him alot comes down to luck and being in the right place at the right time...
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