Don Givens "fell out with" XI

[irishfan86]

I really think you're being too critical on the players here.

McCann has every right to question the selected team if he is playing at a much higher level than his teammates at club level.

By the same token, Givens should justify his selection policy. In this case being loyal to the players who have been in the squad longer is pretty much the only justification (and it's fair, so long as the team is performing).

So if your reasons are loyalty to the other players, tell McCann that, and say that if he's patient, he'll make his way into the team when injuries or poor performances occur.

If he can't take that justification, you tell the media that and see what happens.

But from Givens quotations there, McCann questioned the selection and Givens sent him packing right away.

Antagonism is not the answer, you MUST have good man management skills to succeed at the top level.

It's good to have a mean side, but if you don't have a human one you'll fail to get the best of every player.

Look at Wenger, look at Eriksson, these are managers who know how to treat players. These managers treat their talented players with the respect they deserve and get it back in turn.

Even look at Ferguson, sure he can stamp the boot down if he wants, but he's an excellent man-manager for the most part: look at the way he handled the Rooney and Ronaldo situation after the World Cup.

He dealt with it sensibly and I'm sure took both of them aside or talked to them together and worked it out.

The age of the disciplinarian is gone.

[ifk101]

I really think you're being too critical on the players here.

McCann has every right to question the selected team if he is playing at a much higher level than his teammates at club level.

By the same token, Givens should justify his selection policy. In this case being loyal to the players who have been in the squad longer is pretty much the only justification (and it's fair, so long as the team is performing).

So if your reasons are loyalty to the other players, tell McCann that, and say that if he's patient, he'll make his way into the team when injuries or poor performances occur.

If he can't take that justification, you tell the media that and see what happens.

But from Givens quotations there, McCann questioned the selection and Givens sent him packing right away.

Antagonism is not the answer, you MUST have good man management skills to succeed at the top level.

It's good to have a mean side, but if you don't have a human one you'll fail to get the best of every player.

Look at Wenger, look at Eriksson, these are managers who know how to treat players. These managers treat their talented players with the respect they deserve and get it back in turn.

Even look at Ferguson, sure he can stamp the boot down if he wants, but he's an excellent man-manager for the most part: look at the way he handled the Rooney and Ronaldo situation after the World Cup.

He dealt with it sensibly and I'm sure took both of them aside or talked to them together and worked it out.

The age of the disciplinarian is gone.

According to Givens, McCann said it was a waste of time for him to be in the Irish squad - ie to represent his country is a waste of time. If he said that Givens was right to send him home. This came 2 hours prior to kick-off - Givens hardly has time to sit down and to give McCann a shoulder to cry on and talk it through. He gets a limited amount of time to work with players and if a player doesn't want to represent his country, there's no point wasting the time available on the player as there are plenty of others that would take his place in the squad at the drop of a hat. Whether Givens is the correct man for the U21 position is irrelevant in this case as he was 100% right in sending McCann home.

An important point to remember is that Wenger, Eriksson and the rest of club managers have the carrot of money to motivate players. Givens doesn't. I doubt McCann would behave the same way at his club side.

[geysir]

I really think you're being too critical on the players here.
McCann has every right to question the selected team if he is playing at a much higher level than his teammates at club level.....

McCann has no rights until he earns them. All he has done so far is earn the right to be called up to the Irish squad.

Look at Wenger, look at Eriksson, these are managers who know how to treat players

The standards that Givens applies are no different to what Brady has at the Arsenal acadamy.

[irishfan86]

You play a hard line with millionaire kids or soon to be millionaires and you're going to lose a lot of quality players.

You can command respect with these players without antagonizing them, but Givens just doesn't have the tact for that, and neither do a lot of you.

I'm not talking about kissing anyone's ass, I'm just talking about treating them like adults.

If they have a problem with being excluded from a team, explain to them why, don't send them packing at the first sign of dissent.

As for the issue of money, if that was the issue with a player, I'd sit him down and go over all the examples of underage players performing well at international level and then shortly getting a move to a bigger club.

In any event I don't think McCann was saying it was a waste of time for him to represent Ireland, I think he was saying it was a waste of time for him to come over just to sit on the bench.

Again, I'm not saying McCann should start, but if he is being benched he should be explained why (i.e. loyalty to players in previous squads).

This rash confrontational attitude will get you nowhere with people who are used to being worshipped.

These guys make more money than their parents, date beautiful women, eat in the best restaurants and are treated like VIPs wherever they go.

You start treating them like they're some snot nosed kid and you're going to get nowhere.

I'm not saying there's no time to be harsh, but you'd think Givens could calm him down instead of send him packing. Surely McCann isn't that emotional?

[Noelys Guitar]

Lucky for Paul McGrath he is not playing now. Givens would have sent him packing. Givens running to the media is the laughable part of his falling outs. Shows me a manager who can't manage. His record is woeful. He should be first out the door when the new manager comes in.

[drummerboy]

Have to agree with above post. Its a pity this happened because I really thought the team played very well. They knocked the ball around with ease after a dodgy start. Quigley had a great game. O'Cearuill played a lot better than Friday. The rest of them acquitted themselves well without being outstanding.

[irishfan86]

Lucky for Paul McGrath he is not playing now. Givens would have sent him packing. Givens running to the media is the laughable part of his falling outs. Shows me a manager who can't manage.

This is exactly it. Real managers deal with their problems in house.

With McGrath the full extent of his problems were never known at the time they happened because his managers covered up things and made excuses for him.

Look at the situation with the sweatbands- the man had just tried to kill himself so they gave him some sweatbands for his wrists so the scars wouldn't show instead of going to the media and talking about a big tragedy- Stan could have learned a thing or two about that with Steven Ireland (why get into the granny thing? Just say he had to leave for personal reasons).

[dr_peepee]

Givens is too eager to tell 'his side of the story' when things like this happen. I'm more concerned with that. It's genereally an indication in any argument that they need a 3rd party to validate his words or action.

Managers are a different culture now and I don't think Givens has changed with the times. The days of CLoughie and "do as I say without question" and "if you're not in the first 11 or 16 you're ignored" are long gone. There's a huge difference between a disciplinarian, and a "put up and shut up" manager.

In this case, as sald already in an earlier reply, omisions should be accounted for... Whether tactical reason, age, experience, etc. Only a few minutes is all it should take. It sounds like there was little or no discussion on the issue. Who's fault is debatable but there has to be an outlet or medium for the players to put a constructive argument, in private if need be......( It's hardly a case where Given was afraid to change a winning side now is it???)

Communication is key. I'm a firm beleiver that the next Ireland managers first squad should have AT LEAST 30 odd players in it so the 'Law of the Land' is laid out, and every squad thereafter, those players on the peripheral contacted in some form or other. There were incidents in under the last two managers were the like of Ian Harte, Richie Dunne and Steven Reid (iirc) were ommited and were baffled to the point of grumblings in the media due to no contact from the manager. A couple of 5 or ten minuted phone calls is all it takes. Time easily afforded to international mangers. Even if the answer is not what they want to hear, it's alot better than 'radio silence'..

[dr_peepee]

This is exactly it. Real managers deal with their problems in house.

With McGrath the full extent of his problems were never known at the time they happened because his managers covered up things and made excuses for him.

Look at the situation with the sweatbands- the man had just tried to kill himself so they gave him some sweatbands for his wrists so the scars wouldn't show instead of going to the media and talking about a big tragedy- Stan could have learned a thing or two about that with Steven Ireland (why get into the granny thing? Just say he had to leave for personal reasons).

Agreed!!

[ifk101]

Givens had to send the chap home - he was left with no choice.

As for "running to the media" - there's obviously going to be questions about why a player named for the bench isn't there. Yeah Givens could of made up some story about his grandmother or something like that but if the truth came out further down the line, people would be up in arms at Givens for telling lies.

The fact of the matter is that McCann (apparently) said it was a waste of time playing for his country. How this is comparable with Paul mcGrath I do not know.

[irishfan86]

Givens had to send the chap home - he was left with no choice.

As for "running to the media" - there's obviously going to be questions about why a player named for the bench isn't there. Yeah Givens could of made up some story about his grandmother or something like that but if the truth came out further down the line, people would be up in arms at Givens for telling lies.

The fact of the matter is that McCann (apparently) said it was a waste of time playing for his country. How this is comparable with Paul mcGrath I do not know.

McCann didn't say it was a waste of time playing for his country- he said it was a waste of time sitting on the bench for his country.

It's obvious to me that McCann wants to play, and Givens should have dealt with the situation more maturely and sat him down and had a chat with him.

McGrath was brought up because in many ways he was a "problem player."

Sure he was a nice guy, but you needed to give him a little extra attention to get the best of him because of his various personal issues.

[Drumcondra 69er]

[QUOTE=irishfan86;820180]This is exactly it. Real managers deal with their problems in house.

With McGrath the full extent of his problems were never known at the time they happened because his managers covered up things and made excuses for him.

Look at the situation with the sweatbands- the man had just tried to kill himself so they gave him some sweatbands for his wrists so the scars wouldn't show instead of going to the media and talking about a big tragedy- Stan could have learned a thing or two about that with Steven Ireland (why get into the granny thing? Just say he had to leave for personal reasons).[QUOTE]

Hardly similar situations, much as Stan was a bufoon when it came to management, he could only go with what Stephen Ireland told him which was that his Gran had died. It was nearly a week later the truth (?) came out.

[Noelys Guitar]

Givens had to send the chap home - he was left with no choice.

As for "running to the media" - there's obviously going to be questions about why a player named for the bench isn't there. Yeah Givens could of made up some story about his grandmother or something like that but if the truth came out further down the line, people would be up in arms at Givens for telling lies.

The fact of the matter is that McCann (apparently) said it was a waste of time playing for his country. How this is comparable with Paul mcGrath I do not know.

We only have Givens side of the story as reported in the press. So we don't know what happened until we hear McCann's side of the story and then must decide who we believe. Not comparable with Paul mcGrath who turned up drunk for a qualifying game against Turkey. But I can understand why he did what he did. If Givens is such as servant for Ireland why has'nt he spoken out about the FAI shambles through the years? The fact that they are paying his wages might have something to do with that.

[ifk101]

McCann didn't say it was a waste of time playing for his country- he said it was a waste of time sitting on the bench for his country. It's obvious to me that McCann wants to play, and Givens should have dealt with the situation more maturely and sat him down and had a chat with him.

Extract from rte.ie http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2007/...eland_u21.html

McCann sent home from Ireland game

"The background was that Chris McCann came to me at 5.15pm and said he didn't want to be in the squad tonight. It was a waste of time him being here,' explained Givens.

He travelled to Montenegro and did not take part. He wasn't in the starting line-up tonight and he didn't want to be in the squad. I said to him 'have a think about it because it is obviously going to affect your future.

He said that he didn't want to be in so I said to pack his things and go"

[ifk101]

So your right they're not comparable.

Yes I know.

[pete]

IMO Given problem is that he comes out publicly lambasting U21 players & then after his rant will say it is not a big issue.

[Noelys Guitar]

Extract from rte.ie http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2007/...eland_u21.html

McCann sent home from Ireland game

"The background was that Chris McCann came to me at 5.15pm and said he didn't want to be in the squad tonight. It was a waste of time him being here,' explained Givens.

He travelled to Montenegro and did not take part. He wasn't in the starting line-up tonight and he didn't want to be in the squad. I said to him 'have a think about it because it is obviously going to affect your future.

He said that he didn't want to be in so I said to pack his things and go"

Still reporting Givens words as fact!

[paul_oshea]

Methinks paul_oshea may have been referring to a different Keane!

Me_Thinks you are right

But the way Macy put it, id agree with that one too!!! To a lesser extent mind

[theworm2345]

how/why did he fall out with connolly???

all i can think of was when he wasn't selected for the original squad for the greece friendly, when called up after withdrawals connolly replied that not alone should he not be 4th choice he should be first choice irish striker!!!!! then he refused to travel!!!

Thats Givens' side, do you want me to post Connolly's or should I just assume that your mind is already made up?

[youngirish]

It would be hard for anyone (players included) to question Givens team selection if he had a history of getting good results and had earned the respect that stemmed from this.

Unfortunately the results have been appalling at U21 level so I'd imagine the players feel justified in questioning his management to a degree however right or wrong that may be.

His team selections have been unbelievably bad and considering how frustrated many on here have felt about the exclusion of Garvan and McCann over the years you can only imagine how the players themselves feel. Take into account these are possibly the only two players in the squad who are playing in the Championship or higher who arre always in their team's starting 11 and their omissions become all the more baffling.

Givens out.