I don't know why you are getting so defensive and putting words in my mouth. I agree that Kelly is the best option right now. This is because we haven't given anyone else a proper go. Foley is a 27 year old with one competitive start. I only came into this thread to defend Foley as some people think that one game is enough to judge a player on. Foley is twice the footballer of Kelly. Could Kelly go to anfield and play CM and win? I suppose most would use Foley's versatility and his ability to play ball against him when we have the solid, defensive, 1cm taller Kelly.
Most of the players you list only had the odd cameo here and there.
Static is the perfect word for Trapattoni's squad development.
I'm not sure what Foley's ability to play CM has to do with his suitability for RB?
I think, objectively, Kelly is a better player than Foley in almost every aspect and, crucially, in the aspects that Trap values the most: discipline and defensive solidity.
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Right on cue.
Then again, could Foley play centre half in an qualifier for Ireland. Hardly.
However, I do think Foley is a decent full back. What goes against him, in Traps eyes, is his physique. He is smaller and lighter than Kelly. He is also a lot more attack minded than Kelly, something which Trap might not perceive as a good quality.
Always look on the bright side of life
I'm not being defensive at all and don't believe I put words in your mouth. How you feel about Foley possibly equates slightly to how I feel about Kelly (reliable option, doesn't always get the credit he deserves). But mainly I'm just pointing out that there's not much between Foley and Kelly to play right back (or be the primary back up) in my opinion, but moreover Trap has been justified in his approach simply because Kelly has done well.
You've countered that by saying Trap should've blooded Foley because he WAS a prem regular and because he can play at centre mid (or so it appears?). But your argument against Kelly appears based on international performances three years ago (which I find bizarre) and Premiership appearances (more understandable). But being a first-team regular isn't, and shouldn't, be the only criteria for selection.
Moreover your argument for blooding Foley seems pretty speculative. It's based on your opinion (grand) about Foley but I haven't seen anything of him that suggest he's that much better than Kelly. As for him playing in centre mid - I wouldn't play Patrice Evra at centre mid but he's still a world class full-back. In terms of footballing ability Foley in all his games for Ireland hasn't really shown it (he's had a couple of games at centre mid for us too and was tidy on the ball, but no more so than the perennially lambasted Glenn Whelan).
Don't get me wrong - I'm sure he has those skills, but I think they're possibly overstated. But look, we can easily agree to disagree on that count, we obviously have different opinions on Foley. It's all irrelevant anyway. I just think it's churlish to give off about Kelly, and by extension the manager, when the decisions appear to be fairly well justified.
How? In just the last year Coleman, Forde, Ward, McCarthy, Fahey, Cox and Walters have become squad regulars. Others have flitted in and out, but will likely come back in to the reckoning. Considering we're Ireland (not got dozens of playing options), how is that static?
Last edited by SwanVsDalton; 10/11/2011 at 5:39 PM.
Ou-est le Centre George Pompidou?
Nice summation. I guess it would be nice to have two options instead of just focusing on the defensive.
Trap is definitely very cautious when it comes to allowing full backs license to go forward. Too cautious for my liking, esp at home.
I can't agree that the squad is static. 18 months ago, maybe, but not now.
The putting words in mouth thing. You said I'm basing my opinion on Kelly on a performance from 3 years ago when I've never mentioned this. Prior to some decent performances this year seeing Kelly's name on the teamsheet had me very worried. I'd hardly say I was giving off about Kelly. I came in to the thread to defend Foley. I believe I made a case that Foley should have been given more of a chance over the last few years. Nothing would please me more than Kelly having a couple of stormers and helping us to qualify
Fair points. I think Trap was slow to introduce Foley too. He could have been tried at least a year earlier. That said, when he got his chance he didn't impress me. I was keen to see him do well and would have given him the benefit of any doubt, but I don't think his performances warranted such benefit. I can't say I don't have concerns about Kelly (or nearly eveyone in our squad!) but he's been doing fine. I think he's on a bit of a roll right now and we'll benefit.
foley has impressed me playing for wolves especially last season, he is a more talented player than kelly. he got his chance in the irish team but didn't take it. looked a bag of nerves. therefore kelly is quite rightly ahead of him in the pecking order
Well...
Your feelings on Kelly appear entirely based on how he did in early Irish career. You didn't get specific, in fairness, on a particularly time, it was me who brought up three years ago, but that's simply because I don't think Stephen has let us down in a long while, despite his limitations.
Look if you're arguing about Foley getting less opportunity, I think you're ignoring other factors. Kelly has been around since the Stan days, when he was a PL regular, he's been playing top flight football for a long time. He hasn't played as regularly as Foley in recent years, but you don't simply discard players because of that (in the same way Trap would be wrong to discard Foley if he fails to break back into the Wolves team).
Moreover you're saying Kelly had more opportunities which, on paper, is true. But by my count Kelly's only made seven competitive starts compared to Foley's one - two came under Stan, and two came in the last couple of months. Trap gave him more games, particularly off the bench, probably because he trusted his due to his experience, which overall is fair enough given the manager was fairly new to the squad.
But more importantly Trap threw the whole thing open to Foley in the last year. In that time in all Irish games, Kelly's played 652 minutes and Foley's played 458. That's roughly two games difference, which I think Foley's injuries even out a little. So the difference in game time in the near past isn't so great simply because Trap grew to trust Foley more (symptomatic of his generally more relaxed approach to team/squad selection over the last year or so).
He even gave Foley an opportunity straight in at right-back against Macedonia and, unfortunately, it didn't come off for him. Who knows if more caps would've helped, but it's unfair to suggest Kelly had chance after chance - Kelly was a part of the squad Trap inherited and a player Trap was always going to turn to initially.
Foley's unlucky in the sense the squad is far more competitive but it seems redundant to compare that with Kelly's early career. I'd rather the squad was this competitive and I'd rather a player prove themselves in crucial qualifiers, like Foley had the chance to do.
But I'm sure he'll be back - and if he's the player you think he is () then I'm sure he'll leapfrog whoever's in his way.
Ou-est le Centre George Pompidou?
No, not right on cue. I'm not using it against him, I'm saying it's irrelevant.
During Trap's reign, by my count Kelly has 13 starts plus 4 sub appearances compared to Foley's 4 starts and 3 sub appearances. Clearly one has been given a greater chance. I don't want to repeat myself too much but this was at a time when Kelly became a reserve (2009- ). You highlight the fact the Trap inherited Kelly and I think the fact that he stuck with him so much hightlights the typical static nature of Trap's squad recycling.Well...
Your feelings on Kelly appear entirely based on how he did in early Irish career. You didn't get specific, in fairness, on a particularly time, it was me who brought up three years ago, but that's simply because I don't think Stephen has let us down in a long while, despite his limitations.
Look if you're arguing about Foley getting less opportunity, I think you're ignoring other factors. Kelly has been around since the Stan days, when he was a PL regular, he's been playing top flight football for a long time. He hasn't played as regularly as Foley in recent years, but you don't simply discard players because of that (in the same way Trap would be wrong to discard Foley if he fails to break back into the Wolves team).
Moreover you're saying Kelly had more opportunities which, on paper, is true. But by my count Kelly's only made seven competitive starts compared to Foley's one - two came under Stan, and two came in the last couple of months. Trap gave him more games, particularly off the bench, probably because he trusted his due to his experience, which overall is fair enough given the manager was fairly new to the squad.
But more importantly Trap threw the whole thing open to Foley in the last year. In that time in all Irish games, Kelly's played 652 minutes and Foley's played 458. That's roughly two games difference, which I think Foley's injuries even out a little. So the difference in game time in the near past isn't so great simply because Trap grew to trust Foley more (symptomatic of his generally more relaxed approach to team/squad selection over the last year or so).
He even gave Foley an opportunity straight in at right-back against Macedonia and, unfortunately, it didn't come off for him. Who knows if more caps would've helped, but it's unfair to suggest Kelly had chance after chance - Kelly was a part of the squad Trap inherited and a player Trap was always going to turn to initially.
Foley's unlucky in the sense the squad is far more competitive but it seems redundant to compare that with Kelly's early career. I'd rather the squad was this competitive and I'd rather a player prove themselves in crucial qualifiers, like Foley had the chance to do.
But I'm sure he'll be back - and if he's the player you think he is (
5 competitive starts to 1 is still 5 times as many!
You say club appearances are only a factor which is true. However I feel that during this period (2008-2011) we didn't develop Foley enough when his club performances hightlighted a superiority over Kelly's club appearances during this time. This is the past now and due to the injury at Fulham Kelly could be in their starting lineup a lot more in the coming months.
I predicted it, hence right on cue. By saying it's irrelevant you are using it against him. His ability to play there hightlights certain attributes that he has. These attributes make him a different proposition at right back to Kelly.
I don't think anybody's questioning that he has different attributes to Kelly? He's a good passer of the ball off both feet but under Trap's system that's not a requirement for a full back. Being quick, strong and disciplined are, and Kelly has all of these over Foley.
To say Trap 'stuck' with Kelly is odd. Kelly's there on merit, no? Trap 'stuck' with him initially because he valued trust and experience (still does to a certain extent) but that's only one very close call in a squad which has featured lots and lots and lots of different players and currently looks very different compared to the same squad we had this time last year. I don't think the Kelly/Foley argument really leads on to the Trap conservative squad selection argument.
He has five over three years, two that've come since Foley had his opportunity to nail down right back and three more over three years. It still isn't loads and, fact remains, Foley can only blame himself for not getting more. Again over the last year he's had ample opportunity.
Besides the reason I highlighted the past year in particular is because I don't see the point of taking a three year period in it's entirety - too many different factors. The bottom line is...
...I just don't see the relevance of this. Foley is a developed full international. Maybe he's not getting the credit you think he should on here, but I think most would agree there's more to come from him. But regardless, he a senior international and very much part of the squad and possibly a first line replacement.
So if Kelly is in on merit, and Foley is a full blooded international, then what's really the argument? You seem to be suggesting Foley would be our nailed on right back (or at least ahead of Kelly) if he had the games Kelly had. And Kelly got a little lucky, because the competitiveness wasn't to the same degree when he was coming through. But players shouldn't expect to get multiple chances at international level if there's four odd players fighting it out for one position. Foley did get his chance and didn't take it. That's not Trap's fault.
And it's a bit skewed to suggest Foley should've got the chance when he was in form - Kelly's done a great job in the last while despite not being a regular at club level. Doesn't he deserve credit for that? Lots of players not ostensibly in form have grasped the opportunity at international level.
Look no one here is writing him off or lambasting him - I think Foley's a fine player with plenty of time on his side. He just didn't take his chance and international level is about fine margins. And this thread is about Stephen Kelly - in the main I think he's a player who doesn't get the credit he deserves and your posts somewhat feed into that feeling.
Last edited by SwanVsDalton; 10/11/2011 at 9:23 PM.
Ou-est le Centre George Pompidou?
Some nicely argued points there, good reading.
As for Kelly, I thought he was poor tonight, weak in posession, position and to react at times, and Dunne at one stage took up a position very close to him in a passage of play, as though he was anticipating an error from him, expecting it and the need to cover. On another occasion Dunne picked a much more difficult, lower percentage pass rather than lay it fifteen yards to Kelly which was the ball that looked on, and would normally be played. he had to whip it right by Kelly to do this, he didnt trust him with it, it was quite telling.
Not sure about him being ignored. He appeared to get a lot of 'out-balls' from Given/Dunne throughout the game. Don't think he always used the ball particularly well, but he was no more guilty of that than Ward and some others. He did OK though not particularly eye-catching. Steady, which he has been recently in general.
Ou-est le Centre George Pompidou?
Solid shift tonight at right back in what I guess was only his second league start of the season (Baird was out for "personal reasons" I guess). Was perhaps a bit fortunate in that he avoided Bellamy and Johnson on the other flank to start but Bellamy did move over to his side and Kelly had very few issues. Was actually pretty quiet but I guess thats good for a defender. The match was pretty awful though on the whole as a spectacle. I must admit I had written him off as crap a few years ago (though, I realize now, I did that with most of the players who came through under Stan) and he's starting to prove me wrong. One critique (not just based on tonight) is that he doesn't get forward particularly well though.
My Guarantee
Am looking for old Irish matches on VHS, PM me if you have some and I'll upload them here
I thought tonight was a good game. Scrappy, not great in quality, but plenty of attacking intent from both teams. Liverpool are starting to remind me of a less fluid Arsenal - lovely little interlinking balls in the middle with no end product. Though they were unlucky on a couple of occasions.
As for Kelly, had a decent game. Not easy going up against Bellamy and also Jose Enrique (Kelly made a great block in the second half when Enrique hit the byline). Defended very well in general. Think he also slung in one really great cross which Skrtel diverted behind? But yeah, he's not the most natural attacker but, in terms of Ireland, not sure we've had a comfortable attacking right back in years - Finnan was decent at it but still not particularly fluid going forward. Coleman would be the big hope in that regard.
Ou-est le Centre George Pompidou?
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