French riots

[Condex]

Oh my God...can't believe people like this still exist. Are you from the 1960s?

'don't let them in'-How would the British economy (you, like me, are in London) survive without the goldmine of immigrant labour, providing a cheaper, and more skilled, alternative to locals who really don't want to do some of these jobs anyway. I live in an area full of different races, and the only racial problems we have are with ignorant individuals such as yourselves. Immigration isn't the problem here, social ignorance and deprivation is.

There are al ot of people with opinions like me around, but are not as vociferous as you lefties, who seem to dominate the print media and the BBC..

You say "who really don't want to do some of these jobs anyway" how do you know did you ask them, who did the jobs before the immigrants arrived...

I also live in an area of south London that is full of different races, but I can't see much sign of the harmony you talk of. The riots in Birmingham a few weeks ago was between black and asian people, is my 'ignorance' to blame for that!!!

[pete]

Even the PDs admit that we need lots more migrant workers just to fill current positions in the workforce. And we'll need more and more as time goes on. Talk of 7% unemployment is just scaremongering and worse, it's scaremongering that even rabid right-wing politicians don't go in for.

I wasn't suggesting that immigrants would cause unemployment - just saying we in completely different situation here & just suggesting "what if" scenario.

[jofyisgod]

You say "who really don't want to do some of these jobs anyway" how do you know did you ask them, who did the jobs before the immigrants arrived...

Many of these jobs have only really become major moneyspinners recently, such as the huge nightly cleaning operations in London office blocks. Something like 90% of these jobs are filled by immigrant workers. If local people wanted these jobs, i'm sure they would apply, and this number would rise.

I also live in an area of south London that is full of different races, but I can't see much sign of the harmony you talk of. The riots in Birmingham a few weeks ago was between black and asian people, is my 'ignorance' to blame for that!!!

Is it that you can't see it, or that you don't want to see it? The riots in Birmingham are less of a race issue and more of a gang issue. If they were "British" people, it would be called an altercation or fight. Not a riot. I blame attacks on black teenagers in places like Woolwich,etc. on ignorance.

From my experience, racists are certainly a minority in England, although a xenophobic press are adding stoke to the fire.

[WeAreRovers]

From my experience, racists are certainly a minority in England, although a xenophobic press are adding stoke to the fire.

First Birmingham and now Stoke, the whole of the English midlands will be in flames soon.

KOH

[Condex]

Many of these jobs have only really become major moneyspinners recently, such as the huge nightly cleaning operations in London office blocks. Something like 90% of these jobs are filled by immigrant workers. If local people wanted these jobs, i'm sure they would apply, and this number would rise.

They don't want the jobs because they are being undercut by cheap immigrant labour.Moneyspinners, you may have watched a program a few weeks ago about cleaning in Canary Wharf, by all accounts cleaners are treated like crap and paid at or below the minimum wage..

Is it that you can't see it, or that you don't want to see it? The riots in Birmingham are less of a race issue and more of a gang issue. If they were "British" people, it would be called an altercation or fight. Not a riot. I blame attacks on black teenagers in places like Woolwich,etc. on ignorance.
From my experience, racists are certainly a minority in England, although a xenophobic press are adding stoke to the fire.

I do see, I have watched and learned over twenty years of living in this city and in my opinion it is you who live in cloud cuckoo fantasy land. I too used to be a Guardian reader but along the way I got mugged by reality, most likely
will be the same with you.

[dcfcsteve]

They don't want the jobs because they are being undercut by cheap immigrant labour.Moneyspinners, you may have watched a program a few weeks ago about cleaning in Canary Wharf, by all accounts cleaners are treated like crap and paid at or below the minimum wage..

If we're using television as our primary source of the willingness or otherwise of the British population to do relatively menial jobs, perhaps youi likewise saw the extended news-piece 2 month ago on Newsnight about the largest private bus operator in South Wales - based at the bottom of the Welsh Valleys. South Wales is one of Britain's most economically deprived areas, with a very high rate of particularly male unemployment. Yet the owner of the company was havin to travel to the Baltic states and Poland to actively recruit bus drivers, as he couldn't get enough staff locally. He mentioned how he often used to recruit local lads who would just stop turnin up oneday without any notice. When he eventually got hold of them, they would tell him they just didn't want to drive buses any more. He had one guy bail out on him in this way whilst the camera crew were there filming. He was increasingly unable Tto meet his timetable commitments, as he didn't have enough reliable staff turning-up every day

The camera crew followed him to Estonia as he interviewed potential recruits, and then did a piece 3mths on to see how they were doing. They were all solid, reliable workers, turned up for work on-time, clean and in uniform every day, and the locals interviewed thought they were great. The guy even mentioned how he was now starting to recruit a couple of people from the Welsh-speaking Patagonian communities in Argentina in order to get reliable and hard working Cymraeg-speakers for his bus services in West Wales !!!

Or maybe you saw the Panorama programme 2 weeks ago on 'Postcode lotteries'. It showed a reformed heroin addict who, whilst admiteddly working long hours when he did get jobs, was saying that he didn't want cleaning jobs as they were basically beneath him. And this from a feckin reformed heroin addict with a criminal record for dealing drugs !!!

For every dodgy cleaning company looking to exploit migrant labour, there are countless on-the-level employers who pay at or above minimum wage. I'm talking about the likes of Sainsbury's, Tescos, London Transport, London Underground, and yes - even the dreaded McDonalds. They offer at or over minimum wage, yet you rarely encounter an English person working in any of those outlets in London. Is that just coincidence, or is there either an unwillingness amongst the indigenous population to work in those places, or simply not enough local people to fill those jobs? Can migrant labour really therefore be accused of taking jobs from local people......?

I do see, I have watched and learned over twenty years of living in this city and in my opinion it is you who live in cloud cuckoo fantasy land. I too used to be a Guardian reader but along the way I got mugged by reality, most likely will be the same with you.

I think you've just got bitter and twisted with age. Coincidentally - as you've been in London for over 20 years yourself, you'll appreciate what it's like to be migrant labour/an economic refugee. You are one yourself.........

[dcfcsteve]

First Birmingham and now Stoke, the whole of the English midlands will be in flames soon.

KOH

It'd be doing Stoke/Staffordshire a favour.....

[Soper]

I will just add on the Welsh bus company part - they are extremely hard working lads, obviously their English isn't great but neither are the Welsh drivers, but the uniform must've been a one-off, as I have never seen them wear a uniform of any kind, and I use the bus everyday!

[Condex]

If we're using television as our primary source of the willingness or otherwise of the British population to do relatively menial jobs,

We ???
I use lots of different sources to form an opinion.

perhaps youi likewise saw the extended news-piece 2 month ago on Newsnight about the largest private bus operator in South Wales - based at the bottom of the Welsh Valleys. South Wales is one of Britain's most economically deprived areas, with a very high rate of particularly male unemployment. Yet the owner of the company was havin to travel to the Baltic states and Poland to actively recruit bus drivers, as he couldn't get enough staff locally. He mentioned how he often used to recruit local lads who would just stop turnin up oneday without any notice. When he eventually got hold of them, they would tell him they just didn't want to drive buses any more. He had one guy bail out on him in this way whilst the camera crew were there filming. He was increasingly unable Tto meet his timetable commitments, as he didn't have enough reliable staff turning-up every day

The camera crew followed him to Estonia as he interviewed potential recruits, and then did a piece 3mths on to see how they were doing. They were all solid, reliable workers, turned up for work on-time, clean and in uniform every day, and the locals interviewed thought they were great. The guy even mentioned how he was now starting to recruit a couple of people from the Welsh-speaking Patagonian communities in Argentina in order to get reliable and hard working Cymraeg-speakers for his bus services in West Wales !!!

Or maybe you saw the Panorama programme 2 weeks ago on 'Postcode lotteries'. It showed a reformed heroin addict who, whilst admiteddly working long hours when he did get jobs, was saying that he didn't want cleaning jobs as they were basically beneath him. And this from a feckin reformed heroin addict with a criminal record for dealing drugs !!!

For every dodgy cleaning company looking to exploit migrant labour, there are countless on-the-level employers who pay at or above minimum wage. I'm talking about the likes of Sainsbury's, Tescos, London Transport, London Underground, and yes - even the dreaded McDonalds. They offer at or over minimum wage, yet you rarely encounter an English person working in any of those outlets in London. Is that just coincidence, or is there either an unwillingness amongst the indigenous population to work in those places, or simply not enough local people to fill those jobs? Can migrant labour really therefore be accused of taking jobs from local people......?

As the UK and Ireland have an over generous social welfare systems, in many instances its not worth a persons while working, as they'd receive as much if not more sitting at home. There are over over 2.5 million people on incapacity benefit in this country, who knows what proportion are malingerers..

I think you've just got bitter and twisted with age.

Does stating a different opinon mean that a person is bitter and twisted,
as usual anyone who differs from you lefties is slapped down as unintelligent and/or bitter and twisted.

Coincidentally - as you've been in London for over 20 years yourself, you'll appreciate what it's like to be migrant labour/an economic refugee. You are one yourself.........

Wrong again, infact I was born here...



A

[WeAreRovers]

As the UK and Ireland have an over generous social welfare systems, in many instances its not worth a persons while working, as they'd receive as much if not more sitting at home. ..

Not compared to mainland Europe. France, the Netherlands, Germany etc have way more generous social welfare systems. What Ireland and the UK have are the two most open economies in Western Europe, that's what attracts the migrants. Not the prospect of signing on.

KOH

[Condex]

Not compared to mainland Europe. France, the Netherlands, Germany etc have way more generous social welfare systems. What Ireland and the UK have are the two most open economies in Western Europe, that's what attracts the migrants. Not the prospect of signing on.
KOH

Did I say that our welfare systems was attactive to migrants, what I was saying is that it does not encourage certain people to work, when they can get the benefit and a bit of work on the side.

[jofyisgod]

As the UK and Ireland have an over generous social welfare systems, in many instances its not worth a persons while working, as they'd receive as much if not more sitting at home. There are over over 2.5 million people on incapacity benefit in this country, who knows what proportion are malingerers..

You are beyond the pale dear Sir. I can't see this discussion going anywhere-your views are clearly not congruous to anyone else's on this forum.

Does stating a different opinon mean that a person is bitter and twisted,
as usual anyone who differs from you lefties is slapped down as unintelligent and/or bitter and twisted.

What's with the word 'leftie'? Are you a 'rightie'? You clearly are a cynical man, unwilling to accept change. What paper do you read? You've told us so much about how you stopped reading the Grauniad, but haven't told us your current publication of choice.

[Soper]

Daily Mail readers eh?

[Condex]

You are all mainly all students or civil servants, so I won't be too hard on you, your opinions will change with time.

What do I read ?
The Sun, - for the sport and fun value
The Times
The Telegraph
The Guardian(very rarely just to annoy myself)
The Independant(very rarely just to annoy myself)
The Mail (very rarely)

Magazines
Private Eye
The Spectator

Also various blogs
Heres one with a current Irish interest :
http://www.jihadwatch.org/

[jofyisgod]

You are all mainly all students or civil servants, so I won't be too hard on you

Thanks...damn my age...

Also various blogs
Heres one with a current Irish interest :
http://www.jihadwatch.org/

Aha..haha..ha. So goddamn reliable. Some spotty little man, and his spotty little friends with a chip on their racist shoulders. If you believe this...well. All you lads in Ireland had better run fro the hills, the Jihadists are on the way according to this site...

[dcfcsteve]

We ???
I use lots of different sources to form an opinion.

But apparently only one to present an arguement....

As the UK and Ireland have an over generous social welfare systems, in many instances its not worth a persons while working, as they'd receive as much if not more sitting at home. There are over over 2.5 million people on incapacity benefit in this country, who knows what proportion are malingerers..

So you're agreeing with me then. A couple of notes ago you were claiming there was nothing to suggest the English/Irish didn't want to do the menial jobs that migrant workers were doing, and that they were therefore depriving indigenous labour of work by taking very badly paid/illegally paid jobs. Now you're saying the local unemployed don't want to work because the welfare system is so generous. Reagardless of their reasons - they ain't filling roles that are vital to the running of those countries, leaving it up to migrant labour to literally keep the wheels of the economies moving. So you've effectively agreed with pretty much everyone else on here that migrant labour is currently essential to the economies of England and Ireland...

Does stating a different opinon mean that a person is bitter and twisted,as usual anyone who differs from you lefties is slapped down as unintelligent and/or bitter and twisted.

Not at all. But stating the ill-considered, tabloid views you have does. Particularly when you then go on to argue against yourself a post or two later (as above).

Wrong again, infact I was born here...

Even better - you're immigrant spawn.......



A[/QUOTE]

[dcfcsteve]

You are all mainly all students or civil servants, so I won't be too hard on you, your opinions will change with time.

What do I read ?
The Sun, - for the sport and fun value
The Times
The Telegraph
The Guardian(very rarely just to annoy myself)
The Independant(very rarely just to annoy myself)
The Mail (very rarely)

Magazines
Private Eye
The Spectator

Also various blogs
Heres one with a current Irish interest :
http://www.jihadwatch.org/

I read :
- The Times
- The Financial Times
- The Economist
- The Irish Independent (very occassionally - the only Irish daily I can get in my part of London).

I am :
- Sadly neither a student, nor a civil servant, but the Managing Director of my own business.

I am :
- Politically centrist (have never EVER voted Labour, for example...)

So what do you do then Condex ? Who do you vote for (do you vote ? Do the BNP run candidates south of the Thames...?). And where do you live in South London that is such a hotbed of racial intolerance/tension ? I live on the Stockwell/Brixton borders, and I can assure you that I don't see any racial problems in my area....

[jofyisgod]

So what do you do then Condex ? Who do you vote for (do you vote ? Do the BNP run candidates south of the Thames...?)

And while we're at it:

I read:
The Guardian
The Times
The Economist
Public Finance

I am:
A student

I can't vote, but i am liberal-minded. Not Lib-Dem mind you, but i swing to the left on nearly every issue.

[dcfcsteve]

Al very quiet from everyone's favourite bigot 'Condex' these days.

Perhaps he's realised the gross contradiction in his own ill-thought out 'beliefs' ? Or maybe he's simply lacking the balls to admit that everyone's made his arguements look stupid and proved him wrong.

So come on Spandex - do your squirming in public where we can all see you. There's plenty of things on this thread you've conveniently left unanswered in your disappearing act...

[Dodge]

Al very quiet from everyone's favourite bigot 'Condex' these days.

Perhaps he's realised the gross contradiction in his own ill-thought out 'beliefs' ? Or maybe he's simply lacking the balls to admit that everyone's made his arguements look stupid and proved him wrong.

So come on Spandex - do your squirming in public where we can all see you. There's plenty of things on this thread you've conveniently left unanswered in your disappearing act...

Bit of an unneccasy post steve. He could be busy, he could be holidays etc

Maybe he just grew tired of arguing with you. Either way there's no need for you baiting him...