French riots

[strangeirish]

Don't know if this has been discussed on a thread yet, but wtf is going on?

[Dawn_Run]

Anarchy - brewing for a long time. Scary thing about it is that the segregation that sparked this happens in every country. Lets hope its not a sign of things to come.

I am glad however that they havent gone down the terrorist route. At least these boys are making a point. I have to sympathise with their situation somewhat though.

[Dodge]

Anyone else think of the (excellent) film "La haine" when they hear about the riots?

France is so fcuked up with race its unbelievable...

[superfrank]

Anarchy - brewing for a long time. Scary thing about it is that the segregation that sparked this happens in every country. Lets hope its not a sign of things to come.

Thankfuuly, it's not going to happen here. We don't have segregation of any kind here, AFAIK. All people I know who aren't from Ireland live with Irish people and get on really well with them.

I think it's more of a classist thing though. I saw a bit on Sky News bout it and they all lived in big apartment blocks on the outskirts of Paris.

[the 12 th man]

Those fires (3 different incidents) in the Paris area where Imigrant families perished would certainly not have helped the situation.

[dcfcsteve]

France has had this coming for years. Their approach towards the 10%+ of their population who are immigrant has been woeful. Stick them in the sh!tty suburbs with no jobs, education or future and pretend they don't exist.

The big problem now, however, is that how do you get the genie back in the bottle ? The riots will probably fizzle out (I bet the government is praying for bad weather, as that usually kills riots...), but they have opened some serious wounds.

I'm not convinced that France as a nation is well-placed to tackle the fundamental issues at the root of the problem.

[dcfcsteve]

Thankfuuly, it's not going to happen here. We don't have segregation of any kind here, AFAIK. All people I know who aren't from Ireland live with Irish people and get on really well with them.

I think it's more of a classist thing though. I saw a bit on Sky News bout it and they all lived in big apartment blocks on the outskirts of Paris.

Our immigrant communities are so small that they're bound to be well mixed in with Irish people.

That could very easily change as time goes on, however. For example - communities want to be located near their own place of worship, cultural centres, shops and friends. Once non-white ethnic groups start to become noticeable in a particular area, the existing indigenous population tend to start to drfit away - exacerbating the concentration of ethnic people. It's very easy for an enclave/'ghetto' to begin and extremely difficult to reverse the process.

This dynamic has happened the world over - there is no reason why Ireland would be any different unless the country recognises this and works to prevent ghettoisation occuring.

[paul_oshea]

Anyone else think of the (excellent) film "La haine"

ya was thinking the exact thing.

[paul_oshea]

That could very easily change as time goes on, however. For example - communities want to be located near their own place of worship, cultural centres, shops and friends. Once non-white ethnic groups start to become noticeable in a particular area, the existing indigenous population tend to start to drfit away - exacerbating the concentration of ethnic people. It's very easy for an enclave/'ghetto' to begin and extremely difficult to reverse the process.

tahts not always the case. it often occurs, because these areas are cheaper to live ( i.e. rent )and therefore those less well off i..e immigrants go live there as a consequence.

[Poor Student]

ya was thinking the exact thing.

Same here.

I know some Serbs who lived in Saint Denis. They were the last Europeans to leave their street. One by one each house became replaced with Arabs or Africans. They really packed the houses out too with 10 people or over. The safety and quality of the area went down the drain and they moved out like everyone else had done. This was a grand area with decent houses by the way. Steve is quite right, it is a process that is actually initiated by immigrants and it's up to a government to stop this before it goes beyond control. Do we have any areas in Dublin which are becoming concentrated with any ethnic group?

[Soper]

Anyone else think of the (excellent) film "La haine" when they hear about the riots?

France is so fcuked up with race its unbelievable...

Exactly what I was thinking when I heard about this whole thing.I love French cinema.

Basically, I agree with most others here in that the 'rioters' for want of a beter word are in a dire situation where they have no hope.They might not achieve anything with all this, but they will sure as hell feel good for a while.

My school went on a trip to Paris before, and we were near enough to one of the suburbs involved the current situation, and it certainly wasn't a place with any sense of hope.

[Poor Student]

Basically, I agree with most others here in that the 'rioters' for want of a beter word are in a dire situation where they have no hope.They might not achieve anything with all this, but they will sure as hell feel good for a while.

They may just make their situation worse. The French can only tend towards the direction against them if you ask me. Increased secularisation, preserve the integrity of the almighty republic yaddah yaddah yah. If Le Pen could secure the amount of votes he did last time without this how may he or his party fare next time around?

[A face]

Anyone else think of the (excellent) film "La haine" when they hear about the riots?

That is exactly what i was thinking .... its like it was forecasted ... so far, so good, so far, so good !!

[dcfcsteve]

tahts not always the case. it often occurs, because these areas are cheaper to live ( i.e. rent )and therefore those less well off i..e immigrants go live there as a consequence.

You're right to at least some degree Paul, but the reason why ethnic enclaves exist in parts of London (e.g. the Polish in Hammersmith/Tooting, Lebanese/Arabs in Edgeware Road, Koreans in New Malden, Portuguese in Stockwell etc etc) is not just due to the availability of cheap accommodation. It may initially begin due to that, but then the attraction is equally or more due to the fact that you can exist amongst your own community. This isn't necessarily a bad thing - the Irish did it for centuries - but it can lead to social problems if left unmanaged.

Regardless of how the creation of an enclave begins, the dynamic it creates is usually the same - i.e. displacement of the existing community, and their replacement by further members of the new ethnic group. Again - this isn't necessarily a bad thing, so long as the members of the new enclave embrace and feel fully involved in their new country, and the enclave doesn't become a 'ghetto'.

[dcfcsteve]

Same here.

I know some Serbs who lived in Saint Denis. They were the last Europeans to leave their street. One by one each house became replaced with Arabs or Africans. They really packed the houses out too with 10 people or over. The safety and quality of the area went down the drain and they moved out like everyone else had done. This was a grand area with decent houses by the way. Steve is quite right, it is a process that is actually initiated by immigrants and it's up to a government to stop this before it goes beyond control. Do we have any areas in Dublin which are becoming concentrated with any ethnic group?

To clarify Poor Student - such a dynamic doesn't have to be a bad thing. The Irish have been creating enclaves in Britain and the US for centuries. Some ethnic eclaves can make huge contributions towards areas - particualrly areas that were losing their vitality, facilities etc.

The traditional trend with ethnic enclaves is that a certain group moves to a cheaper area in numbers, an enclave develops, but it disappears within 2-3 generations as the members of that group assimiliate into the broader society and their economic circumstances improve (they move to better housing). They then tend to be replaced by a new ethnic group, and the process starts again.

Where it all goes wrong is when an enclave become a ghetto - i.e. the people there don't have access to the opportunities they require to improve their situation and move-on from the enclave, and as a result they become completely cut-off from the surrounding world. There are plenty of examples of where ethnic enclaves can and do make a positive contribution towards an area. I live in one in London (Stockwell - 40,000 Portuguese in the surrounding area). The problem in France is that the conveyor belt of opportunity out of the enclaves has been stopped - turning them into hope-devoid ghettos on the fringes of society.

And to show it's not just an ethnic thing, a similar dynamic often happens in the UK with regards students. Once an area gets a certain concentration of students, lots of other properties in the area tend to go that way. The sense of an integrated community declines (due primaily to the transient nature of students). Familes, professionals etc often move out - sometime for positive reasons such as cashing-in on the value of their property. But before you know it you have a relatively isolated parallel world existing inside and alongside the 'normal' community. This is obviously not a question of access to opportunity, but it shows that having a non-integrated parallel world existing within/alongside another one is not restricted solely to the issue of immigration and ethnicity.

[SaucyJack]

If I remember correctly, I think it was the French who were saying that nothing like the L.A. riots, circa 1992, could happen in France,...oh well, guess someone was wrong.

[Bald Student]

Do we have any areas in Dublin which are becoming concentrated with any ethnic group?

The only concentration I know of is the muslems living here near the mosque. I remember in my sisters' school they had the rule that the moslem girls weren't alloed to wear their head-scarf except on the days that the caretaker (the only male employee) was in working. It was a silly rule but the point is that we get on grand here.
The only complaint I would have is that the old men from these hot countries put the sauna in the gym so bloody hot that you can burn the inside of your lungs.

[Thunderblaster]

The only concentration I know of is the muslems living here near the mosque. I remember in my sisters' school they had the rule that the moslem girls weren't alloed to wear their head-scarf except on the days that the caretaker (the only male employee) was in working. It was a silly rule but the point is that we get on grand here.
The only complaint I would have is that the old men from these hot countries put the sauna in the gym so bloody hot that you can burn the inside of your lungs.

Isn't the Dorset Street and Parnell Street areas now seen as African enclaves?

[Dodge]

Isn't the Dorset Street and Parnell Street areas now seen as African enclaves?

No. As many Chinese and eastern European living there as African.

[oconghc2]

ya was thinking the exact thing.

cracking film alrite - la haine

think that film was actually based on the troubles in paris around early 90's . Some young fella shot by a cop

not 100% certain of facts.

The policies in France for these "cités" are like a time bomb. Theyve just been creating ghettos for a long time now and its only a matter of time.