Reenergising the forum / fans section

[SkStu]

Just off the back of SkStu's post...


I've mentioned this before (and alluded to it a number of times) but I've long felt that the moderating on the forum is far too strict. And the current lifeless state of the place is a long term consequence of that. I can only speak for myself of course so I'd be keen to hear the views of others.

As an example of what I'm saying (which partly includes the time it's taken to respond) and in direct response to your suggestion - I don't have the impetus to do so.

[dont judge me]... I have recently been spending a lot more time browsing YBIG which i did once in the last 20 years only to say to myself, I'm never visiting there again. I haven't signed up for an account (yet) but i am on the verge of it. Overall, it is what I am looking for. Yes, there is a lot of horsesh!t on there - and some spanners - but it has a good degree of information and debate. I prefer what this site used to be and there are a lot of posters here (all of you truthfully) who i like, respect and appreciate (even when in disagreement) and many who give me a laugh when i need it - - but YBIG now offers far more of both of these elements (information and debate) than has been evident on here for the last 5+ years. Their Ireland section, their Other Football section and their Everything Else section are all thriving. I think moderation here has something to do with it but i wouldnt lay that all at Tets who i like and respect greatly. With that said, i cant think of many reasons why there is such a difference between the popularity and dynamism of the two sites.

To counter your argument, the mods aren't doing this for financial gain, they volunteer time out of their day to keep the show on the road
tets does give excellent stats and figures that must take time to put together etc.

My original post quoted Tets out of frustration with the moderation and the fact that 2 of the 3 posts that were moved to rubbish were totally fine. JRG's is the other post which was just (to me) mildly annoying and easily ignored. I want to be clear that I do have a lot of respect for Tets and that he does this - and does what he thinks is best as a moderator - when probably no one else will put their hand up to do it.

[Eirambler]

[dont judge me]... I have recently been spending a lot more time browsing YBIG which i did once in the last 20 years only to say to myself, I'm never visiting there again. I haven't signed up for an account (yet) but i am on the verge of it. Overall, it is what I am looking for. Yes, there is a lot of horsesh!t on there - and some spanners - but it has a good degree of information and debate. I prefer what this site used to be and there are a lot of posters here (all of you truthfully) who i like, respect and appreciate (even when in disagreement) and many who give me a laugh when i need it - - but YBIG now offers far more of both of these elements (information and debate) than has been evident on here for the last 5+ years. Their Ireland section, their Other Football section and their Everything Else section are all thriving. I think moderation here has something to do with it but i wouldnt lay that all at Tets who i like and respect greatly. With that said, i cant think of many reasons why there is such a difference between the popularity and dynamism of the two sites.



My original post quoted Tets out of frustration with the moderation and the fact that 2 of the 3 posts that were moved to rubbish were totally fine. JRG's is the other post which was just (to me) mildly annoying and easily ignored. I want to be clear that I do have a lot of respect for Tets and that he does this - and does what he thinks is best as a moderator - when probably no one else will put their hand up to do it.

Sorry but I'm going to have to judge you here! If the answer is deemed to be the YBIG forum I'm honestly not sure what the question is - it's a cesspit from what I can see. I agree this forum is very heavily moderated, sometimes I wonder if the reason is actually because YBIG is the way it is and there's almost an overemphasis on preventing foot.ie going the same way.

Internet forums are obviously a declining method of communication. Which is a shame. I doubt there's many under 30s using them these days, except for maybe Reddit. I don't know what the solution to that is, or even whether there is one, but I very much doubt it's YBIG.

[SkStu]

I was just responding to a request by The Fly for some theories. I am not a poster on YBIG but there are plenty on here who are so i will let them comment on their experience there - as i said there is some rubbish and some a-holes on there (and its a crap user platform) but looking past that, there is good information from many posters, broad perspectives and a decent amount of tolerance for "robust" debate.

I am not saying that YBIG is the answer to the question of "why foot.ie (LOI forum aside maybe) is on life support" but when i browse it, the difference in popularity between the two sites is staggering. It begs the question why.

[Eirambler]

I'll give my theory. And it's just a theory. But there seems to be an awful lot of crap posted on that forum. However that crap amounts to a lot of posts, which makes it seem busy. If you stripped away the crap and just limited the post count to the actual sensible football stuff, I don't know that it's actually any busier than foot.ie. Certainly in terms of the Ireland team discussion anyway, which is generally the only section I would go near on either forum. I used to like boards.ie for wider discussion, but that's in serious decline too and not worth the effort anymore.

[pineapple stu]

I am not saying that YBIG is the answer to the question of "why foot.ie (LOI forum aside maybe) is on life support" but when i browse it, the difference in popularity between the two sites is staggering. It begs the question why.

There is a big difference alright (Eirambler's suggestion aside, which may or mayn't be a factor).

I think though when the YBIG fanzine moved across (see here), the fanzine went towards putting money into the atmosphere at games. Even now I think they co-ordinate the singing section at home games, so that naturally gives them a base to build on that we don't have here. They also have a social media presence which foot doesn't have (twitter, etc) - I don't know if that helps any, but it has 36k followers so it can hardly hurt. And if it does, is it worth setting up a foot.ie twitter account to highlight new threads that are being discussed? And who'd run it if so? (I know Adam has said before he was happy to keep away from the likes of twitter because, well, just have a read of twitter...)

All we have is the general lack of the numptiness that's so often seen there!

(And this is probably something that should be split out into a different thread of course)

[CraftyToePoke]

I think its time to take up the Support section option, on modding & if it can be less rigid the above possibilities to reenergise the site & what might be done. They can go hand in hand. If anyone has the inclination.

[SkStu]

There is a big difference alright (Eirambler's suggestion aside, which may or mayn't be a factor).

I think though when the YBIG fanzine moved across (see here), the fanzine went towards putting money into the atmosphere at games. Even now I think they co-ordinate the singing section at home games, so that naturally gives them a base to build on that we don't have here. They also have a social media presence which foot doesn't have (twitter, etc) - I don't know if that helps any, but it has 36k followers so it can hardly hurt. And if it does, is it worth setting up a foot.ie twitter account to highlight new threads that are being discussed? And who'd run it if so? (I know Adam has said before he was happy to keep away from the likes of twitter because, well, just have a read of twitter...)

All we have is the general lack of the numptiness that's so often seen there!

(And this is probably something that should be split out into a different thread of course)

These are all great points. As I think I said in a previous post, I dont think it is all down to moderation here but that i was struggling with what some of the other reasons might be - and these are all very valid.

While I'm here, I'll also just add that I also dont think that foot.ie is "losing" posters to YBIG but the base here has diminished significantly. Since I started browsing foot in 2006/7ish (thanks for the history lesson on the other thread), there appears to have been an initial exodus in the 2009ish timeframe (I remember Bluebeard, MagicMe etc) and then since about 2015/6 it has been a slow drain with a lot of good and frequent posters going partially or completely quiet (Delorean, Razor, Geysir - to name just a few)...and less fresh meat coming in although there are a handful of really good, knowledgable posters like Liamoo, SamHayden and ElatedScum).

I think the diminishment is partly down to personal factors (we're all getting older, busier etc) and partly down to moderation - and by that i mean some absolute cretins getting away with murder for far too long coupled with long standing, well established posters getting infractions and bans at the same time - not to mention silly stuff like 24 hour pun rules and this latest Sagnol stuff.

Other forums have suffered from the same approach and as a result - I think the word association thread is all we have elsewhere and politics gets occasional spurts of life until someone shares something that goes against the moderators personal view. I've said it before - extreme trolling and personal abuse/bullying should be the threshold for whats deemed unacceptable - let the rest go, even if it violates your world view or it annoys you (gets on your nerves).

[pineapple stu]

While I'm here, I'll also just add that I also dont think that foot.ie is "losing" posters to YBIG but the base here has diminished significantly. Since I started browsing foot in 2006/7ish (thanks for the history lesson on the other thread), there appears to have been an initial exodus in the 2009ish timeframe (I remember Bluebeard, MagicMe etc) and then since about 2015/6 it has been a slow drain with a lot of good and frequent posters going partially or completely quiet (Delorean, Razor, Geysir - to name just a few)...and less fresh meat coming in although there are a handful of really good, knowledgable posters like Liamoo, SamHayden and ElatedScum).

Yeah, it'd be great if there was a way to ping some of the older posters as a reminder to start posting again. Here's the posters on the 2012/13 Irish Abroad thread for example and there's some names there it'd be great to see back.

It's a habit though and it's easy gotten out of as you get older and busier. I remember BonnieShels popping back in a welcome flurry of enthusiasm which lasted a few months - that's just the nature of things. Maybe that's something a twitter account would prompt you to do - I dunno.

I sometimes wonder what would happen if, say, a mod started one thread a week in Current Affairs - I think it's mostly quite sensible (with some wacky American ideas in there too) and that might be the prompt to spark some life. Though a lot of people seem to view the forum by forum rather by latest post and miss stuff in other forums. Never quite understood that tbh.

[Acornvilla]

Hello, I myself joined this Forum in maybe 2009? I had lurked for years previous and always found it a great source of football chat with less nonsense than you'd find elsewhere.

Because of the work I do, I have to put far too much focus on social media, and as the likes of football twitter thrived, I dedicated less time to sitting down and reading any sort of forums really. I barely checked this place for a decade and almost forgot about it, which is funny because I had spent so much time reading previous. Social media has become a bit of a hellscape over the last 4/5 years, so I made a conscious decision to try and take more time away from it and put my energies elsewhere, that is why I've been posting a little bit recently.

I do think forums have suffered a bit with the changing trends of how people spend their time/consume media and this kind of space takes a bit more of an attention span. Word of mouth and telling some like minded pals you like the forum is probably as likely to bring new people in as anything, but I also don't think a socials presence could hurt. At the very least it might remind some lapsed users that the space exists and Stu misses them

[Eirambler]

It's kind of been mentioned in one of the posts above, but a bit of success for the national team would do more than anything to improve the use of the forum. A rising tide and all that. Apart from the very odd, short lived moment here or there - Mick getting us within a game of Euro 2020, the playoff semi that we lost on penalties and the little run Kenny had when Barry was there and we put away a few weaker teams, there has been little to get excited about in terms of the national team on any kind of consistent basis for about six or seven years now, and it's only been getting worse with the Canham manager shambles this year. And there has been nothing that has lasted any significant period of time to allow the public to really buy into the team. That's killing forums like this also.

[CraftyToePoke]

It's kind of been mentioned in one of the posts above, but a bit of success for the national team would do more than anything to improve the use of the forum. A rising tide and all that. Apart from the very odd, short lived moment here or there - Mick getting us within a game of Euro 2020, the playoff semi that we lost on penalties and the little run Kenny had when Barry was there and we put away a few weaker teams, there has been little to get excited about in terms of the national team on any kind of consistent basis for about six or seven years now, and it's only been getting worse with the Canham manager shambles this year. And there has been nothing that has lasted any significant period of time to allow the public to really buy into the team. That's killing forums like this also.

That doesn't account for the forum wide die off.

[The Fly]

[dont judge me]... I have recently been spending a lot more time browsing YBIG which i did once in the last 20 years only to say to myself, I'm never visiting there again. I haven't signed up for an account (yet) but i am on the verge of it. Overall, it is what I am looking for. Yes, there is a lot of horsesh!t on there - and some spanners - but it has a good degree of information and debate. I prefer what this site used to be and there are a lot of posters here (all of you truthfully) who i like, respect and appreciate (even when in disagreement) and many who give me a laugh when i need it - - but YBIG now offers far more of both of these elements (information and debate) than has been evident on here for the last 5+ years. Their Ireland section, their Other Football section and their Everything Else section are all thriving. I think moderation here has something to do with it but i wouldnt lay that all at Tets who i like and respect greatly. With that said, i cant think of many reasons why there is such a difference between the popularity and dynamism of the two sites.

My thoughts and suggestions revolve around two things: moderation and consolidation.

I'll preface it by stating that foot.ie for me is the International section (i.e. Ireland), together with the Other Football and Other Stuff (Current Events specifically) sections. So my suggestions pertain to those particular areas. I can't speak at all about the League section as I've no interest in it. I had always wondered why the forum had such a LoI focus, so I really appreciated the explanation pineapple stu provided in the Fans Forum earlier today.

Moderation

I can only repeat what I've already said on this which is that I've long felt that the moderating is far too strict. Tangents are all too frequently shut down, posts removed and warnings issued. All of which just reduces the attraction and impetus for people to engage and contribute. So I'd advocate a much more relaxed approach going forward.

Consolidation

At first glance one of the things that immediately differentiates foot.ie from other football forums I've visited is the sheer number of sub-sections on the home page. Perhaps others like that kind of proliferation but I think that some consolidation would be of benefit. The former heightens the appearance of inactivity...which in itself probably has the effect of contributing to said inactivity.

My proposal here then is to just have an Ireland section, an Other Football section (which would include all non-Ireland related chat and discussion), and then a General Discussion area which would include the Current Affairs, Off-Topic and Other Sports subsections.

[dahamsta]

On moderation, is it really that strict here? I operate Foot.ie on a management brief, I don't spend much time in the forums, but I see all the automated posts and the discussions in the mod forum and I rarely see anything that isn't justified. Yes, Foot.ie initially took a strict approach, which was in reaction to the chaos that was Johnny's forum - can't remember his surname - but I'd argue that it's not as strict as it used to be, and that the moderation that is there works, it's stops the chaos monkeys from taking over.

On changing the site around, I'm happy to as long as the changes are justified. Obviously I'd like to see a bigger community here, community was always the whole point of the site, and I'm willing to invest time and indeed money (in terms of software licencing and the like), but it needs to be sensible and have support from the mods and indeed community.

I've archived the Fans Forum now btw. I'm only a year or so behind.

[John83]

Tets just stepped away for a break, so this isn't opportune timing as he can't chime in.

As I see it, mostly the moderation involves binning lengthy off topic arguments in a thread, and very occasionally an infraction to someone who is trolling or being particularly nasty or fighting for a prolonged time, usually with the mod also having already posted in the thread to request calm or return to topic. Most interventions are in threads that have had numerous reported posts because there are also people who'd like to read about the topic at hand and not whatever bickering has broken out between the fractious twits of the day. By the standards of most fora I've ever freqented, it's relatively light touch here. By the standards of twitter, tets has a cage with rats in it in room 101 (not that I'm any nicer). People's perspectives vary depending on personal stance and whether they've personally been asked to cop on recently.

For myself, I mostly stick to well moderated spaces beause I occasionally have reason to read youtube comments. (The horror. The horror.) I've spent enough time arguing with idiots on the internet to realise that sometimes I'm the idiot (or at least that the argument has run its course) and a tap on the shoulder to remind you that you're just making the place worse for everyone is a good thing.

I'm perfectly happy to back off of that if a simple policy better than laissez-faire can be agreed, or not to let someone else moderate if I'm felt to be doing it poorly. I can just stick to reformatting post titles so I can tell who the heck Ryan Johansson is without opening wikipedia every time.

[osarusan]

There's only two places I actually see moderation happening, which are the Ireland forum and Current Affairs. I cannot recall the last time anything was moderated in the LOI forum.

In the Ireland forum, I don't think moderation is strict, I think it's just petty - the crackdown on puns, the inconsistent requests for proof within 24 hours, and things like that.

Mostly, though I just think that this kind of forum has passed its heyday, so numbers are down.

Also, because the Irish team is currently crap, we have little to discuss other than just how crap we are and why, and that kind of discussion naturally makes posters tetchy and that bit quicker to react to things.

[The Fly]

On moderation, is it really that strict here? I operate Foot.ie on a management brief, I don't spend much time in the forums, but I see all the automated posts and the discussions in the mod forum and I rarely see anything that isn't justified.

In describing it as 'far too strict' I was probably stretching it to drill home the point. Others have described it as heavily moderated or as petty.

In any case the consensus view (amongst those who have provided feedback at least) seems to be that there's too much interference.

Yes, Foot.ie initially took a strict approach, which was in reaction to the chaos that was Johnny's forum - can't remember his surname - but I'd argue that it's not as strict as it used to be, and that the moderation that is there works, it's stops the chaos monkeys from taking over.

And there was and still is merit in that approach. We can get into self-congratulatory territory here...but do I agree that the general standard of debate and engagement seen on foot.ie was higher than that typically found on other football forums.

In recent times however I think the balance has gone too far the other way and is probably contributing to an overall reduction in activity. It's becoming more of a message board and not a forum for discussion. In technical terms that may be a distinction without a difference...but I hope others get what I mean by that?

On changing the site around, I'm happy to as long as the changes are justified. Obviously I'd like to see a bigger community here, community was always the whole point of the site, and I'm willing to invest time and indeed money (in terms of software licencing and the like), but it needs to be sensible and have support from the mods and indeed community.

I've archived the Fans Forum now btw. I'm only a year or so behind.

I'd be interested to read what others think about the consolidation point. It's just always stood out to me I suppose.

[CraftyToePoke]

In the Ireland forum, I don't think moderation is strict, I think it's just petty - the crackdown on puns, the inconsistent

Mostly, though I just think that this kind of forum has passed its heyday, so numbers are down.

I agree fully with your first point, its when they chose to involve themselves, particularly Tets, which leaves me baffled. It seems to be personal preference led which in turn creates inconsistencies. He likes stats, is good at stats, but conversational flow & nuances seem entirely beyond him so his rulings on those are frequently really poor.

A case in point was Bielsa, an absolute super wum who smartly operated just inside the rules, that needed modding way earlier, good posters were sick of him but because of the above, he was allowed to carry on. While other conversations were shut down for being temporarily ( but generally interesting & overall relevant ) arguably off topic.

Your second point, is wrong, the heyday is over but footdot is dead. I'm on half a dozen forums like this one, one is a UK lower league club with a core support of about 7k. Its a daily hub of all topics, Tour de France, election fallout, box sets, gigs, the lot and it's all busy. So are the England / Scotland & Wales ones for direct comparison. Several smaller club ones too, by that I mean entities with a much smaller support base than ours.

There absolutely is still buy in to a discussion platform which isn't socials level nonsense & is well modded.

I think John83 deciding to use the phrases twits & to cop on above betrays a mindset which is at best unhelpful here. There's hardly anyone left John, maybe not look down your nose so obviously at those who are still here & looking to try to save the thing ? Maybe be a few percent less high handed when you have to intervene as people have clearly voted with their feet. Might be a start.

The site was once in a position to deal with posters in that way & get away with it, it no longer is but for both Ireland section mods, its still 2007 era. Tune in lads ....

All that said, renewal is key & the Twitter feed and higher profile visible online footprint is needed too. Its a crowded market place & footdot doesn't sell its overall excellent product. It isn't all on two mods, but they need to see their job as being to keep people here, they're achieving the opposite.

[Eminence Grise]

I joined in 2010, after a couple of years lurking, and it’s been a go-to almost every day since, though it’s less enjoyable than it used to be. Maybe because I’m in a different phase of life. But some of the great posters are long gone. I miss their humour and insights, the sparring that made here unmissable. There are still some, and some newer people in their place, but the quality has dropped. Sure, we’re fewer, but there’s more intolerance and unwillingness to have honest discussion.

It’s why I don’t think the ‘sclerosis’ is just a moderating issue. But an issue doesn’t have to be real: it only needs people to believe it’s real. Hats off to the mods, they do a thankless job well and are usually invisible. It’s only when something contentious crops up that moderating becomes an issue.

I see two extremes on moderating: at one, light moderating lets serially bad faith posters away with murder (look how long it took to get rid of TOWK and Bielsa’s Irish). About five years ago, trolls dragged the forum down and it hasn’t recovered. Good posters leave, but there seemed to be more than usual at the time.

Moving along, I’d say aggressive, bad-tempered posting benefits from light moderating (see the Stephen Kenny thread and some Dundalk/Shamrock Rovers interactions). To a lesser extent I’d include the dogmatists, and posters who never back up points and drag threads into whataboutery. They seem to have arrived four or five years back – maybe on the trolls’ coattails, or maybe they’re symptomatic of the decline in civility on social media. I find them off-putting, and I imagine others do, too. On this side, the posters are more to blame than the mods.

In the middle is the sweet spot where mods need only keep an eye on threads.

Then, less flexible moderating, and mods' preferences. I know Tets doesn’t want puns. I’ve argued it with him, but I respect what he does, so I curb my instincts. My puns are rare in Ireland threads (knowing he’s not here today, I’ll say they’re well done everywhere else). The problem is you can’t instinctively know what annoys a mod, especially when the situation isn’t covered in the rules (and I acknowledge that Adam ruled on the puns). I’d also include that some posters are told to give evidence for what, better phrased, is an opinion, but others aren’t. It’s capricious, and you can’t be sure whose rules you’re following, if any.

Finally, the other extreme: non-negotiable moderating. Some is obviously necessary (not calling a former FAI official a crook) or forum behaviour (no abusing posters) but some feels less so, like the Sagnol-racism and NI-players-we-might-turn posts. Both were simmering for a while, which made the embargoes feel abrupt and unfair.

So what can we do? Spread the word to new members or contact former members. More posters would be good, but might not address perceived issues. As individuals we are responsible for what we post, and maybe we are less considerate than we should be. We’ve all read interactions that would put new members off joining. I can’t be certain I haven’t written some of them.

For younger posters (I’m Gen X, and I’m assuming there are younger posters!) social media norms define online etiquette. This forum has similarities with but isn’t social media: older posters were on forums pre-Bebo and have different norms. So much of social media is a toxic cesspit and a mirror for the self-absorbed, but do we need to revisit our norms, or explain rules so that they aren’t ‘just because’ so new members can adapt and be accommodated?

I think the gap is posters not knowing why mods do what they do, and mods relying on custom and practice. Apart from rumours and allegations, there’s nothing in the rules about when proof is needed to back up a post; the phrase ‘attack the post, not the poster’ is one of the best rules we have – but it’s not in the rules; trolling is covered, but not aggression and bad temper. Maybe there’s no harm in blowing the dust off the rule book and updating it anyway.

At the end of the day, none of this directly contributes to fewer people posting. Consolidating the forum to make it more active and attractive to visitors seems sensible – Schoolboys hasn’t had a post for five years, but it’s sixth from top. Only two of the top six forums have had a post this month. Tumbleweed stuff. Grouping all Irish football at the top (international, league, league clubs, women’s, non-league) with international/world football beneath, followed by other stuff would have a cluster of active forums at the top.

And bring back Post of the Month! Not that I’m sore or anything but I’d a 50:50 chance of a medal back in (checks the thread… comes back five minutes later) November 2016. Never mind. That horse has gone from bolting into a tin can.

[CraftyToePoke]

Then, less flexible moderating, and mods preferences. I know Tets doesn’t want puns. I’ve argued it with him, but I respect what he does, so I curb my instincts. My puns are rare in Ireland threads (knowing he’s not here today, I’ll say they’re well done everywhere else). The problem is you can’t instinctively know what annoys a mod, especially when the situation isn’t covered in the rules (and I acknowledge that Adam ruled on the puns). I’d also include that some posters are told to give evidence for what, better phrased, is an opinion, but others aren’t. It’s capricious, and you can’t be sure whose rules you’re following, if any.

If its not in the rules, it shouldn't trouble a poster what a mods personal preference is IMO. Be annoyed, get over it. Like we all have to

[Eminence Grise]

Not sure if you're joking - whether you are or not, that's exactly what I meant when I wrote there was more intolerance than before, and rules would be helpful. I'm not at a loss: my family, friends and colleagues get the brunt of my puns instead, and I get real-time reactions.