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Thread: Brian Kerr...

  1. #261
    Coach tetsujin1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkStu View Post
    Ended up watching Kerr’s analysis of the game a couple of hours after the game ended and, in return, I’d like to buy him a pint of Rockshore and watch him drink every drop.
    Alright Stu, we're all recovering from the result and passions are running high, but there's still a limit.
    Last edited by tetsujin1979; 06/09/2021 at 8:57 AM.
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  3. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkStu View Post
    Ended up watching Kerr’s analysis of the game a couple of hours after the game ended and, in return, I’d like to buy him a pint of Rockshore and watch him drink every drop.
    Slightly over the top there.
    Last edited by tetsujin1979; 06/09/2021 at 8:57 AM.
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    Seasoned Pro jbyrne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetsujin1979 View Post
    That's about all he can do.
    He had his chance and he blew it.
    We could have played that final game against Switzerland for another hour and we still wouldn't have scored
    Kerr has a cheek really. his two campaigns both ended in two critical matches against switzerland where we failed miserably to land a single punch in either.
    the tactics in the home match in 2005 were just shockingly conservative and non coherent

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  6. #264
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    Yep. Even though he took over after 2 defeats v Russia and the swiss. Both those teams did everything they could to bring us back into the group by drop points left right and centre. Kerr need to beat a hopeless Russian team in Dublin and didn't . Make no mistake he had 2 campaigns ...all be it by default

  7. #265
    Coach tetsujin1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant View Post
    Kerr's record as ireland manager is far better than he is given credit for and it was bullsh*t for the media to claim he was a conservative coach (if he was he would never have achieved the results he did with the Faroes)
    Kerr's given about the right level of credit for the results he achieved.
    The conservative reputation is mainly based around the following, among other things


    • Never won a competitive game against a team ranked higher than 84th (Georgia in June 2003) - also means he never won a competitive game against higher ranked opposition
    • Never scored more than three goals in a game, and only managed that twice - Canada and Cyprus
    • In his two campaigns, we finished third and fourth, after finishing no lower than second for the previous eight campaigns
    • Only came from behind to win a game once, against Australia
    • In games where we led against Russia, Turkey, Bulgaria, Switzerland, and Israel(twice) we ended drawing
    • In his final game against Switzerland, where we had to score, he took off Robbie Keane.


    He had arguably the greatest selection of talent since Italia '90 available to him - peak Damien Duff, Robbie Keane, Given, Finnan, etc - and he achieved nothing with it.
    Last edited by tetsujin1979; 23/09/2021 at 9:03 AM.
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  9. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetsujin1979 View Post
    Kerr's given about the right level of credit for the results he achieved.
    The conservative reputation is mainly based around the following, among other things


    • Never won a competitive game against a team ranked higher than 84th (Georgia in June 2003) - also means he never won a competitive game against higher ranked opposition
    • Never scored more than three goals in a game, and only managed that twice - Canada and Cyprus
    • In his two campaigns, we finished third and fourth, after finishing no lower than second for the previous eight campaigns
    • Only came from behind to win a game once, against Australia
    • In games where we led against Russia, Turkey, Bulgaria, Switzerland, and Israel(twice) we ended drawing
    • In his final game against Switzerland, where we had to score, he took off Robbie Keane.


    He had arguably the greatest selection of talent since Italia '90 available to him - peak Damien Duff, Robbie Keane, Given, Finnan, etc - and he achieved nothing with it.
    He was nowhere near good enough
    Kenny will have us 2nd last in this group ( worse players to be fair) his performance v Israel at home showed he was out of his depth "when we needed Winton Churchill, we had john major"

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  11. #267
    The Cheeto God Real ale Madrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetsujin1979 View Post
    Kerr's given about the right level of credit for the results he achieved.
    The conservative reputation is mainly based around the following, among other things


    • Never won a competitive game against a team ranked higher than 84th (Georgia in June 2003) - also means he never won a competitive game against higher ranked opposition
    • Never scored more than three goals in a game, and only managed that twice - Canada and Cyprus
    • In his two campaigns, we finished third and fourth, after finishing no lower than second for the previous eight campaigns
    • Only came from behind to win a game once, against Australia
    • In games where we led against Russia, Turkey, Bulgaria, Switzerland, and Israel(twice) we ended drawing
    • In his final game against Switzerland, where we had to score, he took off Robbie Keane.


    He had arguably the greatest selection of talent since Italia '90 available to him - peak Damien Duff, Robbie Keane, Given, Finnan, etc - and he achieved nothing with it.
    To be fair to Kerr - he took over the first campaign where we had already lost twice, to where we still had an outside chance to qualify on the last day. It wasn't his fault entirely we were 3rd.
    Yes we were 4th in 2006 qualifying but only for that Henry goal in Dublin - France, Switzerland ourselves and Israel would have been level on 18 points so the margin for error there was tiny. We should have absolutely beaten Israel twice but id balance that with great results achieved in Switzerland and France.

    On the talent point - yes we had a good team but we didn't have better players than France or Switzerland so its moot to suggest he achieved nothing in that context I think.

    That was Kerr's first full campaign in charge - he should have got another imo to learn from his mistakes just like McCarthy learned from the last min goals in Skopje etc.

    Instead we sacked him and hired Steven Staunton.

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    Coach tetsujin1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid View Post
    To be fair to Kerr - he took over the first campaign where we had already lost twice, to where we still had an outside chance to qualify on the last day. It wasn't his fault entirely we were 3rd.
    True, but we needed to get something from both of the last two games to top the group, or at least three points to finish second, instead we took the lead against Russia and drew, and then lost 2-0 in Switzerland. We needed a last minute OG to beat Albania at home as well. I'm not convinced that Mick wouldn't have gotten the other results he got in the group either.
    Full results here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_E...fying_Group_10

    Quote Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid View Post
    Yes we were 4th in 2006 qualifying but only for that Henry goal in Dublin - France, Switzerland ourselves and Israel would have been level on 18 points so the margin for error there was tiny. We should have absolutely beaten Israel twice but id balance that with great results achieved in Switzerland and France.
    It wasn't just the Henry goal that decided our position in that group - dropping leads in three games against Israel and Switzerland, and then failing to score at home in a game where a draw was as bad as a loss were larger contributors to finishing fourth IMO.
    Full results here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_F...3_UEFA_Group_4

    Quote Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid View Post
    On the talent point - yes we had a good team but we didn't have better players than France or Switzerland so its moot to suggest he achieved nothing in that context I think.

    That was Kerr's first full campaign in charge - he should have got another imo to learn from his mistakes just like McCarthy learned from the last min goals in Skopje etc.

    Instead we sacked him and hired Steven Staunton.
    France had better players than us across the pitch, but was this Switzerland team really that much better than the team Kerr put out - player for player - https://us.soccerway.com/matches/200...erland/238589/
    Did we really need to keep four defenders on the pitch when we needed a goal? Why take off both strikers when we needed a goal? Why take off Robbie Keane when we needed a goal?
    I don't recall much gnashing of teeth, or calls for Kerr to be kept on, when his contract wasn't renewed, or even after Staunton's first game in charge. It wasn't really until later, when it was clear he was out of his depth, that fans were asking if replacing Kerr was the right thing to do
    Last edited by tetsujin1979; 23/09/2021 at 10:14 AM.
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  14. #269
    Seasoned Pro jbyrne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid View Post
    To be fair to Kerr - he took over the first campaign where we had already lost twice, to where we still had an outside chance to qualify on the last day. It wasn't his fault entirely we were 3rd.
    the only punch we landed in that game was mark kinsella throwing a water bottle at a swiss player from the bench.
    what annoyed me about kerrs campaigns was that when we really needed to we just didn't take any risks and really go for it. this game and the following campaign last game against the same opposition are prime examples. the media response to switzerland 05 was rightly scathing. we were completely rudderless at that stage and this is from someone who did his best to give him the benefit of the doubt the whole way through.

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  16. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbyrne View Post
    the only punch we landed in that game was mark kinsella throwing a water bottle at a swiss player from the bench.
    Wrong game The water bottle was in Switzerland, no?

    At home we started great. Ian Harte missed a sitter of a header after 5 mins and after that we did absolutely nothing. I might be getting my games mixed up myself now! - but I think the Swiss were almost dejected at the end for only having drawn. It was a truly pathetic effort at winning a crucial game.

    My recollection too is that while the fans were equivocal about retaining Kerr, the media had turned against him. This was the same media that was doing jigs of delight when he was appointed - the media essentially appointed him.

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    Its a good point about the media, Kenny also has their backing currently
    I wonder when they will turn on him or what will be his waterloo for them

  18. #272
    Seasoned Pro jbyrne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuttgart88 View Post
    Wrong game The water bottle was in Switzerland, no?
    yes, it was the away swiss game i was referring to.

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  20. #273
    Coach tetsujin1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuttgart88 View Post
    Wrong game The water bottle was in Switzerland, no?

    At home we started great. Ian Harte missed a sitter of a header after 5 mins and after that we did absolutely nothing. I might be getting my games mixed up myself now! - but I think the Swiss were almost dejected at the end for only having drawn. It was a truly pathetic effort at winning a crucial game.

    My recollection too is that while the fans were equivocal about retaining Kerr, the media had turned against him. This was the same media that was doing jigs of delight when he was appointed - the media essentially appointed him.
    RTE released a behind the scenes documentary the Christmas after Kerr's contract wasn't renewed detailing the 2006 World Cup qualifying campaign.
    There are two scenes that always stand out in my head, one was Eamon Dunphy making the point that, as the campaign continued, it was Shay Given's performances that were deciding games.
    The other was a press conference in a hotel, I think before the France game. As you say the media had essentially appointed Kerr, or at the very least given him their backing ahead of every other candidate. This was on the back of several years where he was always available for a quote on a player, or his opinion on a result, or performance. The relationship between Kerr and the press had changed, because his role had changed, but in this scene, he's walking away from someone off screen who's asking him questions, and as he's going, he turns back as says dismissively "I have to take training", and I always thought that's when it was clear that his previous relationship with the press ended. After that, the team's performance was criticised more than it had been, and should have been, and it really was only a matter of time before he was gone.
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  22. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetsujin1979 View Post
    RTE released a behind the scenes documentary the Christmas after Kerr's contract wasn't renewed detailing the 2006 World Cup qualifying campaign.
    Don't think I've ever seen that one. I don't suppose it's available anywhere? Why I would want to put myself through it is questionable but am curious nonetheless.

  23. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by zero View Post
    Don't think I've ever seen that one. I don't suppose it's available anywhere? Why I would want to put myself through it is questionable but am curious nonetheless.
    Asked KillianM2 on twitter, but unfortunately he doesn't have a copy
    Did some digging on the forum, there's this thread about it: https://foot.ie/threads/32220-Brian-Kerr-Documentary
    And an interview with T*m H*phries after the Swiss game here: https://foot.ie/threads/30417-Articl...up-elimination
    a quick google of the documentary name results in this press release from RTE: https://presspack.rte.ie/2005/12/20/...rld-cup-story/
    Last edited by tetsujin1979; 23/09/2021 at 2:51 PM.
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  25. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetsujin1979 View Post
    He had arguably the greatest selection of talent since Italia '90 available to him - peak Damien Duff, Robbie Keane, Given, Finnan, etc - and he achieved nothing with it.
    This is spot on, and you could argue that despite being hounded out by his kingmakers in the media, he got an easy ride for his failure of a tenure. Its not just the top table talent he had, the players around those in Cunningham, Holland, Kinsella, Breen, McAteer, Kiely, Staunton, Carr, Kelly, Carsley Harte, etc were very capable established top division pros and in some cases captains of their clubs. I think in depth, he had more than the Italia 90 squad at his disposal.

    The Charlton era had a top team, but outside the squad it fell away quickly, but Kerr had players like Jeff Kenna & Kavanagh not making squads even.

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  27. #277
    The Cheeto God Real ale Madrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetsujin1979 View Post
    True, but we needed to get something from both of the last two games to top the group, or at least three points to finish second, instead we took the lead against Russia and drew, and then lost 2-0 in Switzerland. We needed a last minute OG to beat Albania at home as well. I'm not convinced that Mick wouldn't have gotten the other results he got in the group either.
    Full results here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_E...fying_Group_10
    Yes but the point I was making was that he came in half way through the campaign so a little unfair to brand the 3rd place as his fault. A home draw to Russia and a defeat to Switzerland was 1 more point than McCarthy got in the 2 corresponding games at the start.

    Quote Originally Posted by tetsujin1979 View Post
    It wasn't just the Henry goal that decided our position in that group - dropping leads in three games against Israel and Switzerland, and then failing to score at home in a game where a draw was as bad as a loss were larger contributors to finishing fourth IMO.
    Full results here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_F...3_UEFA_Group_4
    I said that we should not have drawn with Israel so that was of course a contributory factor but the bad results get highlighted as Kerr's fault but the excellent away results in Switzerland and Paris are forgotten. Our 2 points in Qualifying v Israel were a feat that neither SWI or FRA could better. I felt we could have learned from those mistakes in the next campaign. Kerr never got that chance and I always felt it was due to his LOI background.

    Quote Originally Posted by tetsujin1979 View Post
    T
    Did we really need to keep four defenders on the pitch when we needed a goal? Why take off both strikers when we needed a goal? Why take off Robbie Keane when we needed a goal?
    I don't recall much gnashing of teeth, or calls for Kerr to be kept on, when his contract wasn't renewed, or even after Staunton's first game in charge. It wasn't really until later, when it was clear he was out of his depth, that fans were asking if replacing Kerr was the right thing to do
    I don't agree with your overall narrative re the Switerland game tbh. First up I thought we played 3-5-2 with Carr and Harte as wing backs - maybe Carr played midfield my memory is not great on that (edit did John O'Shea play midfield?) - and in any case Kerr brought off his two strikers and replaced them with 2 different strikers including a target man in an attempt to get the goal. You make it look as if we went 5-5-0 in the last few mins. We couldn't afford to concede either as draw was no good to us and it suited Switzerland who sat really deep, so all in all it was a tough proposition against a tough side to break down. I felt at the time Kerr was harshly treated and ill always believe that to be the case notwithstanding the concession of multiple leads during that campaign. Other managers got more leeway than he did.
    Last edited by Real ale Madrid; 23/09/2021 at 12:45 PM.

  28. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid View Post
    Yes but the point I was making was that he came in half way through the campaign so a little unfair to brand the 3rd place as his fault. A home draw to Russia and a defeat to Switzerland was 1 more point than McCarthy got in the 2 corresponding games at the start.
    Half way through the campaign is a bit much, we were two games into an eight game qualifying campaign.

    Quote Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid View Post
    I said that we should not have drawn with Israel so that was of course a contributory factor but the bad results get highlighted as Kerr's fault but the excellent away results in Switzerland and Paris are forgotten. Our 2 points in Qualifying v Israel were a feat that neither SWI or FRA could better. I felt we could have learned from those mistakes in the next campaign. Kerr never got that chance and I always felt it was due to his LOI background.
    He got the job in the first place partially because of his LOI background. The 0-0 draw in Paris was probably the best performance under Kerr. His worst performance was the 0-0 draw with Switzerland. Two nil-all draws were the best and worst performances of his reign. There's a lot to read from that, and even if Henry hadn't scored against us, we still would have finished third in the group.

    Quote Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid View Post
    I don't agree with your overall narrative re the Switerland game tbh. First up I thought we played 3-5-2 with Carr and Harte as wing backs - maybe Carr played midfield my memory is not great on that (edit did John O'Shea play midfield?) - and in any case Kerr brought off his two strikers and replaced them with 2 different strikers including a target man in an attempt to get the goal. You make it look as if we went 5-5-0 in the last few mins. We couldn't afford to concede either as draw was no good to us and it suited Switzerland who sat really deep, so all in all it was a tough proposition against a tough side to break down. I felt at the time Kerr was harshly treated and ill always believe that to be the case notwithstanding the concession of multiple leads during that campaign. Other managers got more leeway than he did.
    According to this - https://www.theguardian.com/football...yminute.sport1 - O'Shea was in midfield in a 4-4-2, with Harte, Dunne, Cunningham, and Carr in defence.
    Kerr replaced our greatest striker, and his partner with two strikers who never going to score. My point was that, against a Swiss team who barely left their own half for the whole game, why keep the four man defence? A draw was as bad as a loss in that game - we had to score, and he took off his biggest goal thread to protect an ultimately worthless draw.
    Last edited by tetsujin1979; 23/09/2021 at 2:59 PM.
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