Stephen Kenny

[CraftyToePoke]

We ran a poll here previously at key moments in the SK era, mods, any chance of one now again for a few days please ?
I notice the YBIG one is running again at the moment and with 150+ votes in is 79% in favour of retaining the manager.

[ontheotherhand]

Folks....Mick McCarthy cost more than twice as much. More importantly, he had the benefit of an experienced spine of players from GK through midfield and to a proper centre forward. Randolph, Whelan and McGoldrick were 3 of his best performers. McGoldrick was by far his best player. With him we could compete even if the football was tough to watch at times. Look at the Swiss results with and without McGoldrick.

Mick did ok with that group. Not great, but ok. Some good performances and some really grim ones and ultimately he failed to qualify. I was glad to see him go overall. It's no great surprise he gets the sack so often.

Sadly we aren't going to be qualifying under Kenny or another manager until a core group of midfielders and at least one striker get a few more years under their belts. We will finish above the Armenia's and below the Ukraine's for a while. We concede from really silly mistakes and lapses in concentration. That's down to a lack of experience on the field and occasionally a lack of ability i.e. Hourihane.

That said, as much as that's a partial defense of Kenny I'd be fine if we brought in someone else as well. He's had time and done ok for me albeit I had low expectations. Who would want it though? Any sane manager is going to see we are years away from being competitive. Even 2024 might be too soon.

We finished 3rd as 3rd seeds. It wasnt quite the disaster it's being made out to be here.

[tetsujin1979]

We ran a poll here previously at key moments in the SK era, mods, any chance of one now again for a few days please ?
I notice the YBIG one is running again at the moment and with 150+ votes in is 79% in favour of retaining the manager.

Do you want it now, or after the two friendlies in November?

[nigel-harps1954]

Do you want it now, or after the two friendlies in November?

November will probably see a change of the guard again. The likes of Smallbone, Coventry, and a couple of others potentially brought through.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Folks....Mick McCarthy cost more than twice as much. More importantly, he had the benefit of an experienced spine of players from GK through midfield and to a proper centre forward. Randolph, Whelan and McGoldrick were 3 of his best performers. McGoldrick was by far his best player. With him we could compete even if the football was tough to watch at times. Look at the Swiss results with and without McGoldrick.

Mick did ok with that group. Not great, but ok. Some good performances and some really grim ones and ultimately he failed to qualify. I was glad to see him go overall. It's no great surprise he gets the sack so often.

Sadly we aren't going to be qualifying under Kenny or another manager until a core group of midfielders and at least one striker get a few more years under their belts. We will finish above the Armenia's and below the Ukraine's for a while. We concede from really silly mistakes and lapses in concentration. That's down to a lack of experience on the field and occasionally a lack of ability i.e. Hourihane.

That said, as much as that's a partial defense of Kenny I'd be fine if we brought in someone else as well. He's had time and done ok for me albeit I had low expectations. Who would want it though? Any sane manager is going to see we are years away from being competitive. Even 2024 might be too soon.

We finished 3rd as 3rd seeds. It wasnt quite the disaster it's being made out to be here.

Randolph was available for Kenny and he was selected for all the 2020 Nations league games I believe. Are you talking about the much lambasted Glenn Whelan? Also, McGoldrick was available for Kenny until he dropped him which may have aided his move to retire.

Mick came very close to qualifying in a tough group with a worse squad than Kenny's so if you were glad to see him go then......

Previous managers were then correct instating we don't have the players? They've been vindicated?

We came a long way off toping the group. Another failure in the growing list with Kenny. He also stated that the aim was to win the group. So it really was a disaster just going by Kenny's own target.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Do you want it now, or after the two friendlies in November?

He should be gone before November to get the new manager in for the friendlies.

[SkStu]

Again, this is wrong and another failed excuse for those defending Kenny. The squad for McCarthy's last game v Denmark:

Randolph, Doherty, Duffy, Egan, Stevens, Browne, Hendrick, Whelan, Hourihane, McClean, McGoldrick.
Subs: Kevin Long, Clark, Parrott, Cullen, Byrne, Brady, Robinson, James Collins, O'Hara, Maguire, Travers, Judge.

Kenny had all of these players available to him bar Whelan and selected all of them bar maybe Judge? McGoldrick retired not long afterwards but Kenny inherited a squad that ran Denmark and Switzerland very close for qualification. On top of this, a number of young players have emerged and developed at their clubs. Bazunu, Kelleher, Collins, Omobamidele, O'Shea, Molumby, Idah, Obafemi, Knight, Ogbene. Josh Cullen moved to Anderlecht and made great improvements. Kenny fans would claim that McCarthy wouldn't have blood the new players but he had already brought Aaron Connolly on board (he was injured for the Denmark game) along with Parrott. The truth is that Kenny has had a stronger squad available to him than McCarthy! And done far worse.

Previous managers used to get lambasted for claiming we don't have the players, now we don't have the players is one of the many excuses used by Kenny supporters. Despite these excuses, what level of results would have been satisfactory to anyone going into the Kenny reign?
1. Losing to an understrength Slovakia in the play-offs? He didn't get a new manager bounce that even Staunton got and notched up his first failure.
2. Scored one goal in battling it out at the bottom of the nations league group.
3. Again battled it out at the bottom of world cup qualification with embarrassing results against Luxembourg and Azerbaijan.
4. A hatrick of bottom of the barrel campaigns with a humiliating defeat to Armenia.

His reign has been an unmitigated disaster. He deserved to be sacked long before now but we can't go into another campaign with him in charge.

Sorry, how is it wrong exactly? The list of players you have selected to make your point actually reinforce what i said in the piece you quoted. Doherty, Egan, Duffy, Stevens, Hendrick, Whelan, Hourihane, McGoldrick, McClean, K Long, Clark, Brady, Travers - are all players that were playing EPL or top of Championship in 2019 (Villa and Sheffield United both gaining promotion to the EPL in 2019, Stoke relegated to Championship in 2019). Randolph, Robinson, Browne, Maguire, Judge all mid table Championship. Collins won League 1 and L1 POTY. The rest were something of anomalies and didnt truly feature much if at all under Mick (Parrott, Byrne, Cullen, O'Hara).

To say that the players that SK has are not a) younger overall and b) not playing at the same level overall is not accurate. As an aside, Kenny selected the vast majority of players that had played under Mick for that Slovakia game. Only Kelleher, Molumby and Idah were new call ups in his first squad if i recall correctly. Only 12 from that list above were in the most recent SK squad. Of the other 11, 9 are still available to him. Its been a massive overhaul.

[CraftyToePoke]

Sadly we aren't going to be qualifying under Kenny or another manager until a core group of midfielders and at least one striker get a few more years under their belts. We will finish above the Armenia's and below the Ukraine's for a while. We concede from really silly mistakes and lapses in concentration. That's down to a lack of experience on the field and occasionally a lack of ability i.e. Hourihane.

That said, as much as that's a partial defense of Kenny I'd be fine if we brought in someone else as well. He's had time and done ok for me albeit I had low expectations. Who would want it though? Any sane manager is going to see we are years away from being competitive. Even 2024 might be too soon.

I would agree with much of this, any manager who'll promise a major finals with our current player group at their current career stage ( & it may not be an upward trajectory for many of them from here ) is either lying, deluded and maybe both. That said, Kenny shouldn't have been talking about them winning the NL group either. So it isn't qualification or bust IMO for him at this stage.

What he has done, taking on sides playing decent ball, as he said could be done has been very enjoyable particularly as the list of predecessors generally said it couldn't be done, he deserves credit for that. What he has also done is effectively blown each campaign in the first window with a clanger result against sides we have to find a way to beat to make his other work relevant.

At least an actual conversation has broken out recently about the man, on here. It became very absolute and entrenched which turned many away from contributing to the discussion which IMO is a sign of debate having failed in favour of attacks & absolutes. Anti SK said we couldn't pass - till we did, we couldn't score - till we did, then we couldn't win - till we did, now they are saying we won't qualify, but he has done enough to negate many of the early criticisms whether they acknowledge that or not.

I suppose it rests on if you have faith on him to overcome the clangers and beyond that produce in every game, all through the game, what he unquestionably has produced in some games. Some do, some don't, some want to wait and see because any change won't dramatically alter the ceiling of this player group at this point & he might get there anyway. I have always wanted to see where this leads, fully before changing and .. just about .. still do. But he is one clanger from the end now and if it comes, he has nobody to blame but himself, the campaign needs to be alive coming into the final international window and not dead ( or as good as ) in the first one because of a brain fart result.

[CraftyToePoke]

Do you want it now, or after the two friendlies in November?

I would say now as the NL campaign being over is more of a punctuation than the friendlies.

[ontheotherhand]

Randolph was available for Kenny and he was selected for all the 2020 Nations league games I believe. Are you talking about the much lambasted Glenn Whelan? Also, McGoldrick was available for Kenny until he dropped him which may have aided his move to retire.

Mick came very close to qualifying in a tough group with a worse squad than Kenny's so if you were glad to see him go then......

Previous managers were then correct instating we don't have the players? They've been vindicated?

We came a long way off toping the group. Another failure in the growing list with Kenny. He also stated that the aim was to win the group. So it really was a disaster just going by Kenny's own target.

Randolph was available in a sense but had basically retired. Whelan night have been lambasted by some but he was a key figure to most serious pundits and fans. Mick had a more experienced team. Players who have declined since we're still useful then. They were harder to beat because of that. He's not exactly a tactical mastermind. Did you not anticipate a bit of a transition? I'd be surprised at that. You post a lot so you must follow things pretty closely.

Previous managers shouldn't have said that we didn't have the players, particularly as they often had some good ones they were overlooking or not getting the most out of but that doesn't mean it isn't true now. We've been on a steady decline for anyone watching and when the last crop of good ones went we were left with a serious void. We have a chance at a few players making the grade needed now but we are a long way off having a squad as strong as 2002 or even close.

[tetsujin1979]

I would say now as the NL campaign being over is more of a punctuation than the friendlies.

do you want the same options as in the other two polls - linked in the first post in the thread

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Sorry, how is it wrong exactly? The list of players you have selected to make your point actually reinforce what i said in the piece you quoted. Doherty, Egan, Duffy, Stevens, Hendrick, Whelan, Hourihane, McGoldrick, McClean, K Long, Clark, Brady, Travers - are all players that were playing EPL or top of Championship in 2019 (Villa and Sheffield United both gaining promotion to the EPL in 2019, Stoke relegated to Championship in 2019). Randolph, Robinson, Browne, Maguire, Judge all mid table Championship. Collins won League 1 and L1 POTY. The rest were something of anomalies and didnt truly feature much if at all under Mick (Parrott, Byrne, Cullen, O'Hara).

To say that the players that SK has are not a) younger overall and b) not playing at the same level overall is not accurate. As an aside, Kenny selected the vast majority of players that had played under Mick for that Slovakia game. Only Kelleher, Molumby and Idah were new call ups in his first squad if i recall correctly. Only 12 from that list above were in the most recent SK squad. Of the other 11, 9 are still available to him. Its been a massive overhaul.

You were trying to infer that Kenny had a weaker squad than his predecessor. This is demonstratively untrue and your post above backs that up. He basically had the same squad to begin with and since then a large number of youngsters have developed along with players like Cullen upping their standard. Kenny has had access to squads of similar strength to McCarthy's and now access to a stronger squad than McCarthy. The results show he is performing a long way below his predecessor. That's where he should be judged.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

I would agree with much of this, any manager who'll promise a major finals with our current player group at their current career stage ( & it may not be an upward trajectory for many of them from here ) is either lying, deluded and maybe both. That said, Kenny shouldn't have been talking about them winning the NL group either. So it isn't qualification or bust IMO for him at this stage.

What he has done, taking on sides playing decent ball, as he said could be done has been very enjoyable particularly as the list of predecessors generally said it couldn't be done, he deserves credit for that. What he has also done is effectively blown each campaign in the first window with a clanger result against sides we have to find a way to beat to make his other work relevant.

At least an actual conversation has broken out recently about the man, on here. It became very absolute and entrenched which turned many away from contributing to the discussion which IMO is a sign of debate having failed in favour of attacks & absolutes. Anti SK said we couldn't pass - till we did, we couldn't score - till we did, then we couldn't win - till we did, now they are saying we won't qualify, but he has done enough to negate many of the early criticisms whether they acknowledge that or not.

I suppose it rests on if you have faith on him to overcome the clangers and beyond that produce in every game, all through the game, what he unquestionably has produced in some games. Some do, some don't, some want to wait and see because any change won't dramatically alter the ceiling of this player group at this point & he might get there anyway. I have always wanted to see where this leads, fully before changing and .. just about .. still do. But he is one clanger from the end now and if it comes, he has nobody to blame but himself, the campaign needs to be alive coming into the final international window and not dead ( or as good as ) in the first one because of a brain fart result.

Kenny was given every chance to succeed, take emotion out of it and there is very little case for keeping him on. A succession of dreadful results can't be brushed over as brain farts. If so then Staunton should have been kept on! Kenny has had 4 failures in his time with Ireland. He's had too many chances already. Why risk letting him have a 5th?

[CraftyToePoke]

do you want the same options as in the other two polls - linked in the first post in the thread

I think its different now, its more a straight two choice dynamic tets, does he lead us into the next campaign or not ?
What to others think ?

[ontheotherhand]

I would agree with much of this, any manager who'll promise a major finals with our current player group at their current career stage ( & it may not be an upward trajectory for many of them from here ) is either lying, deluded and maybe both. That said, Kenny shouldn't have been talking about them winning the NL group either. So it isn't qualification or bust IMO for him at this stage.

What he has done, taking on sides playing decent ball, as he said could be done has been very enjoyable particularly as the list of predecessors generally said it couldn't be done, he deserves credit for that. What he has also done is effectively blown each campaign in the first window with a clanger result against sides we have to find a way to beat to make his other work relevant.

At least an actual conversation has broken out recently about the man, on here. It became very absolute and entrenched which turned many away from contributing to the discussion which IMO is a sign of debate having failed in favour of attacks & absolutes. Anti SK said we couldn't pass - till we did, we couldn't score - till we did, then we couldn't win - till we did, now they are saying we won't qualify, but he has done enough to negate many of the early criticisms whether they acknowledge that or not.

I suppose it rests on if you have faith on him to overcome the clangers and beyond that produce in every game, all through the game, what he unquestionably has produced in some games. Some do, some don't, some want to wait and see because any change won't dramatically alter the ceiling of this player group at this point & he might get there anyway. I have always wanted to see where this leads, fully before changing and .. just about .. still do. But he is one clanger from the end now and if it comes, he has nobody to blame but himself, the campaign needs to be alive coming into the final international window and not dead ( or as good as ) in the first one because of a brain fart result.

I think the problem in the earlier discussions was that it was just too early for the OTT criticism. It all sounded like people had already made their minds up when most people should have realized we were in for a long overhaul and probably some pain before things got better as the players we needed to come through did so. I reacted to that by defending him probably a bit too much on the flip side of that. I've never been a massive fan of him but you could just tell the anti-LoI brigade were out in force from the start. If you wanted him given time or argued that there was progress you had to be a clueless LoI fanatic or "Kennyite". There were a lot of real straw man arguments where people claimed that anyone who wanted Kenny in was thinking of him as a Messiah who would bring us to Brazilian levels of entertaining football. Nonsense stuff. Most fans were on the reasonable sides of either "he doesn't have enough experience at this level and it's showing" or "'he's shown enough ability with Dundalk, we need someone who knows the 21s and the team is starting to play some good stuff". But on an internet forum....well.....there's no room for grey area.

That he's won over the crowds going to games is actually really encouraging and tells a story all on it's own.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Randolph was available in a sense but had basically retired. Whelan night have been lambasted by some but he was a key figure to most serious pundits and fans. Mick had a more experienced team. Players who have declined since we're still useful then. They were harder to beat because of that. He's not exactly a tactical mastermind. Did you not anticipate a bit of a transition? I'd be surprised at that. You post a lot so you must follow things pretty closely.

Previous managers shouldn't have said that we didn't have the players, particularly as they often had some good ones they were overlooking or not getting the most out of but that doesn't mean it isn't true now. We've been on a steady decline for anyone watching and when the last crop of good ones went we were left with a serious void. We have a chance at a few players making the grade needed now but we are a long way off having a squad as strong as 2002 or even close.

Did Randolph play in the 2020 nations league? Whelan was 36 and his legs were gone. Who would you have, Whelan or Cullen? Again, Kenny had virtually the same squad as McCarthy but with the addition of talented youngsters. Stronger squad but weaker results.

And at the end of the day that's the bottom line. We can give our opinions on whether the players are good enough etc but when it comes to results they are all fact based. The facts show that Kenny has overseen the worst spell of any Irish manager for decades. Worse than Staunton. He has had 4 failures as Irish manager and has come closer to rock bottom than top in all groups he's overseen. These facts can't be overlooked. We also have to look at the fall in our rankings, making it harder for future campaigns, along with the fall in revenue from repeated failures. This leaves his position untenable in my view and hopefully the FAI see it that way as well.

[CraftyToePoke]

Kenny was given every chance to succeed, take emotion out of it and there is very little case for keeping him on. A succession of dreadful results can't be brushed over as brain farts. If so then Staunton should have been kept on! Kenny has had 4 failures in his time with Ireland. He's had too many chances already. Why risk letting him have a 5th?

Evening Boomers, you still haven't answered my question from before IIRC, the one that got you your little holiday from here, the one about if every game should be a referendum on the competence of the manager ?

Nevertheless, I will answer yours in the spirit of civilised discourse & although I feel I answered it in my post already, you are in your own way making an effort to debate.

Because I don't believe the player pool ceiling is much, if any, higher than he is achieving. You yourself cannot forgive the clangers, others take a beep breath and more of an overview. Different strokes, etc.

[pineapple stu]

I think its different now, its more a straight two choice dynamic tets, does he lead us into the next campaign or not ?
What to others think ?

Are you asking for a poll on the poll?

I'd like to see a poll on that before giving my view..

I think Yes, No, Unsure but thinking no, and Unsure but thinking yes would do it? (Question being should he start the Euro qualification campaign as manager)

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Evening Boomers, you still haven't answered my question from before IIRC, the one that got you your little holiday from here, the one about if every game should be a referendum on the competence of the manager ?

Nevertheless, I will answer yours in the spirit of civilised discourse & although I feel I answered it in my post already, you are in your own way making an effort to debate.

Because I don't believe the player pool ceiling is much, if any, higher than he is achieving. You yourself cannot forgive the clangers, others take a beep breath and more of an overview. Different strokes, etc.

Evening zoomy. I don't remember that question or any holiday? Why would 1 game decide anything? It's repeated failures that should be the deciding factor.

Well I've used facts to show that Kenny has had a similar level squad to his predecessor and now has a superior squad to his predecessor. The facts also show McCarthy's record as played 10, won 5, drew 4 and lost 1. Kenny's record is played 28, won 7, drawn 11 and lost 10. That's the overview with emotions taken out of it. His reign has been a failure based on results.

[CraftyToePoke]

I think the problem in the earlier discussions was that it was just too early for the OTT criticism. It all sounded like people had already made their minds up when most people should have realized we were in for a long overhaul and probably some pain before things got better as the players we needed to come through did so. I reacted to that by defending him probably a bit too much on the flip side of that. I've never been a massive fan of him but you could just tell the anti-LoI brigade were out in force from the start. If you wanted him given time or argued that there was progress you had to be a clueless LoI fanatic or "Kennyite". There were a lot of real straw man arguments where people claimed that anyone who wanted Kenny in was thinking of him as a Messiah who would bring us to Brazilian levels of entertaining football. Nonsense stuff. Most fans were on the reasonable sides of either "he doesn't have enough experience at this level and it's showing" or "'he's shown enough ability with Dundalk, we need someone who knows the 21s and the team is starting to play some good stuff". But on an internet forum....well.....there's no room for grey area.

That he's won over the crowds going to games is actually really encouraging and tells a story all on it's own.

Yeah, the middle ground & with it what makes this site such a pleasure to be part of was obliterated and it became noise vs counter noise. The story of the man, and his tenure as Ireland manager is in the middle somewhere but agendas as you say took over, merits & demerits were twisted to suit narrative & counter narrative. A pity.