League of Ireland in Europe 2016

[legendz]

I don't see that as realistic. Ideally wed have teams in the group stages every year, but were a long way from that.

Ideally we would alright!

I think ELQ2 is a realistic target. I'm aware of those who haven't. It doesn't change my view that it is a realistic target. There is such a thing as underperforming and not meeting expectation.

Pat's and UCD have negotiated ELQ1 as I would have expected. What game marked the end of Fenlon's time in charge of Rovers?

In my estimation Cork underperformed last year. I got that impression from their manager as well. It was a setback and they responded as a good team would this year. I wasn't surprised Cork made Q3 this year. I sensed a determination after last year and as they showed, they are good enough.

[pineapple stu]

I was referring to your post here.



Saying that we should get 3/3 through QR1 seems a reasonable target to set to me. Rovers should have completed the trio this year. It actually seems quite a reasonable thing to aspire to if the FAI was doing something like a strategic plan!

I don't necessarily disagree with the target - although in reality, it's actually quite difficult; one in four of the matches were won by the non-seed this year, for example (including Cork). Last year, one in three matches were won by the non-seed. I don't think there's a huge gap between many of the seeds and non-seeds. And you can be unlucky with a draw; you can get a good team from a lower country or a lower team from a good country and suddenly a seed can be in trouble.

I very much disagree that Rovers "should" have completed the trio this year. They were well beaten in the end, and against a league we've only got one win against in seven attempts.

But the bottom line is, the logic behind the post in no way justified the target. Our previous record in no way suggests that we should be getting all three teams through the first round. We can target it all we like - but that's different.

Pat's and UCD have negotiated ELQ1 as I would have expected.

If you "would have expected" a First Division, largely amateur, hugely inexperienced team to beat one with 250+ international caps and with a budget 4/5 times greater than UCD's, then you know less about football than I thought.

[El-Pietro]

Ideally we would alright!

I think ELQ2 is a realistic target. I'm aware of those who haven't. It doesn't change my view that it is a realistic target. There is such a thing as underperforming and not meeting expectation.

If you want to set it as a target then I'm on board with it. You said LOI teams should expect to qualify. Thats unrealistic. There are some very good teams in the first round each year.

Pat's and UCD have negotiated ELQ1 as I would have expected. What game marked the end of Fenlon's time in charge of Rovers?

In my estimation Cork underperformed last year. I got that impression from their manager as well. It was a setback and they responded as a good team would this year. I wasn't surprised Cork made Q3 this year. I sensed a determination after last year and as they showed, they are good enough.

UCD qualifying was a MASSIVE SHOCK. City came up against a team at about our level. The circumstances of the tie mean we threw it away but there was never a guarantee that we would qualify. I would say that over the two legs they were the better team by a large margin.

[legendz]

Massive respect for UCD for negotiating ELQ1 as per my my expectations for LoI clubs. As a previous poster points out, the odds were against them for doing so.

[pineapple stu]

So what you're saying now is that what you expect and what most people expect doesn't correlate?

Stopped clock syndrome, methinks.

[legendz]

If you want to set it as a target then I'm on board with it. You said LOI teams should expect to qualify. Thats unrealistic. There are some very good teams in the first round each year.

If that's your opinion you are right to disagree with me. Getting to ELQ2 is my expectation for LoI clubs. They should expect to qualify. It's a round at their level.

Unless there's a fair play opponent from a high ranked nation, LoI clubs should be confident of getting past the first hurdle.

There are obvious factors to consider. If it's the rare occasion the league is represented by a club outside the top 6, they've done well to win the cup. If it's a club's first experience in Europe for a few years it has to be taken into account. I don't think the Cork City manager saw it as much of an excuse. Regardless of seeding they should have negotiated ELQ1 and they put that right this season. Respect for that.

If the league's champion is in a CLQ1 of 30 teams in the season after next, my expectation will be for them to make CLQ2. They should be capable of it.

[El-Pietro]

If that's your opinion you are right to disagree with me. Getting to ELQ2 is my expectation for LoI clubs. They should expect to qualify. It's a round at their level.

Unless there's a fair play opponent from a high ranked nation, LoI clubs should be confident of getting past the first hurdle.

There are obvious factors to consider. If it's the rare occasion the league is represented by a club outside the top 6, they've done well to win the cup. If it's a club's first experience in Europe for a few years it has to be taken into account. I don't think the Cork City manager saw it as much of an excuse. Regardless of seeding they should have negotiated ELQ1 and they put that right this season. Respect for that.

If the league's champion is in a CLQ1 of 30 teams in the season after next, my expectation will be for them to make CLQ2. They should be capable of it.

Fair Play Entrants are gone.
AIK Solna, HJK Helsinki and Maccabi Tel Aviv (Southern team so slim chance of drawing them) were the top 3 seeded teams in the first round this year. I don't think an Irish team would have much chance of beating any of those. Wouldn't be impossible but we would be massive underdogs. But sure, we should expect to qualify from the first round.

[pineapple stu]

So LoI clubs should expect to qualify every time, except for lots of exceptions?

But who they're up against isn't a factor at all?

Right so.

[TheBoss]

Since 2004/05

LOI has had 27 entrants in the UEFA Cup/Europa League First Qualifying Round and have won 15 ties and lost 12.
LOI has been seeded 16 times in that time, won 8, lost 8. The 11 unseeded, 7 won, 4 lost.

[legendz]

Fair Play Entrants are gone.
AIK Solna, HJK Helsinki and Maccabi Tel Aviv (Southern team so slim chance of drawing them) were the top 3 seeded teams in the first round this year. I don't think an Irish team would have much chance of beating any of those. Wouldn't be impossible but we would be massive underdogs. But sure, we should expect to qualify from the first round.

That's a good point about those 3 opponents. AFAIK 3 LoI teams have been starting in ELQ1 since 2014. All 3 got through that year. I was surprised Rovers didn't make it a trio this year. Cork I know were disappointed last year. Pat's have been great representatives, they bounced back this year.

I am genuinely surprised that their isn't an expectation of making ELQ2 barring the obvious exceptions.

When Pat's and Cork got through this year I saw it as job done and onto the next round. Rovers was a disappointment. I'd have thought the Cork and Rovers managers would have been confident enough of progression and would have been targeting a shot at Q2 opponents for a place in Q3.

[El-Pietro]

Pats and Cork City got insanely kind draws this year. That isn't necessarily going to happen in the future. You aren't looking at the whole draw, just the teams we drew. Not every team as beatable as those from Luxembourg or N.Ireland.
Pats and Rovers were seeded too which obviously makes things easier. Neither would be seeded next year, and nor will Derry or Cork City in the Europa League.

I would be disappointed if we didn't get through at least one round, but I don't see it as something we should be expecting to do each year, especially as an unseeded side. Getting to the third round is incredible, we had an amazing run in Europe this year. Aided by relatively kind draws in the first and second rounds, our luck ended in the third round where we drew one of the toughest teams possible. Cork City have only won 2 rounds of European Football twice before this season. It doesn't happen as often as you think it does, and I think the success of Cork City and Dundalk is colouring your opinion. Do a little bit of research and look at the history of Irish teams in Europe, and the types of teams we can face and you'll understand this.
I spent a lot of time looking at the permutations in the build up to the draws, and as the games were going on, I did the same last year and I'll do the same again next year. I will be hoping we can get as far as we did in 2016 if not further but I won't ever take it for granted that we will win a game in Europe. We haven't done it very often.

[ger121]

Pats and Cork City got insanely kind draws this year. That isn't necessarily going to happen in the future. You aren't looking at the whole draw, just the teams we drew. Not every team as beatable as those from Luxembourg or N.Ireland.
Pats and Rovers were seeded too which obviously makes things easier. Neither would be seeded next year, and nor will Derry or Cork City in the Europa League.

I would be disappointed if we didn't get through at least one round, but I don't see it as something we should be expecting to do each year, especially as an unseeded side. Getting to the third round is incredible, we had an amazing run in Europe this year. Aided by relatively kind draws in the first and second rounds, our luck ended in the third round where we drew one of the toughest teams possible. Cork City have only won 2 rounds of European Football twice before this season. It doesn't happen as often as you think it does, and I think the success of Cork City and Dundalk is colouring your opinion. Do a little bit of research and look at the history of Irish teams in Europe, and the types of teams we can face and you'll understand this.
I spent a lot of time looking at the permutations in the build up to the draws, and as the games were going on, I did the same last year and I'll do the same again next year. I will be hoping we can get as far as we did in 2016 if not further but I won't ever take it for granted that we will win a game in Europe. We haven't done it very often.

I think Pats would be seeded?

[sparky12345678]

pats would be seeded but he's right Cork, Derry, even Rovers wouldnt be (sligo would just miss out).
The fact that our teams wouldnt be seeded reflects their poor showing in Europe in the last 4-5 years.
Take Pats though. Theyve had a few decent runs but since 2009 theyve had a consistent seeding of 4.something (in 2013 they had 5.9 ) which is enough to be seeded in that round. (note that despite Dundalks success as it stands they are on 4.7 while pats sit at 4.2) Pats may well drop to 3 soon as well. The point is yes. QR1 could be tough but on any given day the top3-4 Irish clubs should be able to run the highest seed close (who this year was Maccabi and who we hope Dundalk can beat next week).
To be seeded one needs about 3.6 which requires say two 1.0' within the last 5 years plus a few 0.6's or so. its about building consistency rather than having one good euro run every 5 years.

for QR1 we should be hoping/aiming for 2 of our teams to be seeded, plus hoping that the non seeded team knocks out the seeded team.

[holidaysong]

If Dundalk came second this year, does anyone know what kind of situation they'd be looking at in the Europa League? What round, seeding etc. I'd happily research it myself but I'm not really sure where to start! Trying to get all my info together before deciding who exactly I think want to win the league.

We'd enter at UEL QR1 and be seeded. We would probably need another 2 points in our UEL group this year to get seeded in UEL QR2 (around the same as UCL QR2 seeding).

[legendz]

Cork City have only won 2 rounds of European Football twice before this season. It doesn't happen as often as you think it does, and I think the success of Cork City and Dundalk is colouring your opinion. Do a little bit of research and look at the history of Irish teams in Europe, and the types of teams we can face and you'll understand this.
I spent a lot of time looking at the permutations in the build up to the draws, and as the games were going on, I did the same last year and I'll do the same again next year. I will be hoping we can get as far as we did in 2016 if not further but I won't ever take it for granted that we will win a game in Europe. We haven't done it very often.

I have been following the league since the early 90's. Dundalk and Cork aren't colouring my opinion at all. In recent years UEFA have made more teams from lower ranked leagues start out in the first of 4 qualifying rounds. This is to accommodate the automatic qualification of clubs from the top leagues. Getting through Q1 has shown to be very attainable seeded or not barring something like 3 possible opponents as per your example.

LoI champions have made CLQ3 in 2 of the last 8 years. In these 8 years had 30 champions been starting out in CLQ1 with the winners guaranteed an ELQ3 place, I think Lol champions would have gotten through CLQ1 more often than not.

UEFA's creation of qualifying first rounds of 4 with many teams in Q1 suits the level of LoI teams to advance to the next round. It's a relatively new experience for most of them to have a round with a strong chance of progression. The Cork manager knew it last year. It was put right this year.

Q2 in both competitions is the level of LoI teams. Getting through Q2 is tricky. Dundalk and Cork did it this year. It's to be enjoyed. The next season or two might end in disappointment in Q2. It's the nature of a tough round for teams coming from our league.

If Europa League Q3 entry is granted to the winners of an enlarged CLQ1, the league's champions should be involved in at least 3 European rounds more often than not. That will be a positive after LoI champions exited Europe after one round in 6 years out of 8.

[El-Pietro]

So now you're changing the argument? IF 30 teams start in the first round of the CL of course that changes things and gets teams to the second round of the CL on a much more frequent basis. But that isn't the current situation.

You are literally the only person who has mentioned losers in the second round of the CL dropping into the EL in round three. Thats not something that exists now so we haven't been discussing it. You are talkign about teams winning in round 1 of the Europa League as it stands, not winning in a new (as yet undefined) First Round of the Champions League

[legendz]

So now you're changing the argument? IF 30 teams start in the first round of the CL of course that changes things and gets teams to the second round of the CL on a much more frequent basis. But that isn't the current situation.

Ah hello! I'm talking about both ELQ1 and the speculated CLQ1. The possible expansion of CLQ1 is similar to the expansion of ELQ1 both of which has a round with a strong possibility of LoI teams getting through. Getting through ELQ1 is par for the course. Getting through CLQ2 or ELQ2 is where kudos are earned. It's just the way it is! Enjoy watching your local LoI team in action and have a nice evening!

[El-Pietro]

OK and now "getting through ELQ1 is par for the course". You've not read anything I've said. I'm done arguing with you, its pointless.

[legendz]

You've not read anything I've said.

Haha, after your previous post focusing on CLQ1 only! Enjoy watching your local LoI team in action and have a nice day!

[pineapple stu]

Enjoy watching your local LoI team in action and have a nice day!

Are you built by the Sirius Cybernetics Corp or something?