Dundalk Fined For Palestine Flag at Euro Game

[DannyInvincible]

CAS turned away Legia's initial request "that [the club] be provisionally admitted to participate in UEFA Champions League matches until the CAS renders its final arbitral award" in order to confirm that the Maribor-Celtic tie could go ahead without Celtic having to worry that Legia might be reinstated at their expense, but Legia are still proceeding with a case for compensation anyway, however ill-advised that might be. It's not as if progress guaranteed them Champions League qualification anyway. They still would have had to navigate through another qualifying round, so it would be hard to quantify any potential loss anyway, even if they did have a legitimate case (which they don't).

I got this from an Ajax website:



Alot of Ajax fans and Jews don't like the link and wish Ajax would drop it. Also in England, the Jewish community, Peter Herbert and Kick It Out have asked Spurs fans to stop the Y-d chants as it's offence.

I recall that, aye, but it wasn't the clubs' Jewish links (which are somewhat dubious anyway) that I was questioning. I was questioning why they'd be allowed to display flags of Israel. Is it actually the case that UEFA allow them to wave Israel flags? Judaism and Zionism are not the same thing. Whilst Judaism is a cultural/religious identity, Zionism is very much a political force.

[GypsyBlackCat]

They appealed even to the CAS, who have a lot more credibility than UEFA currently. And it was rejected. It's hardly as if it's not happened before.

But it was harsh on Legia, just like this fine is harsh on Dundalk. It was a mistake and a misunderstanding of the rules. If we go by DFC statement, it's even harsher because Dundalk were going by the rules and some idiots broke them.

[DannyInvincible]

Seems to me that Dundalk FC have had issues with their support now for a while yet they dont look like they are willing to resolve it in anyway. Just blaming supporters for everything wont solve anything, and leads to mad situations like this.

What else can Dundalk do though? It's a no-win for them; they're seen as either silencing their supporters' voices on the day of the game if they fulfill their obligation as requested by the UEFA delegate or they're seen as blaming the supporters for pointing out that it was these individuals' actions that got the club fined. The only other option is to refuse to recognise UEFA's authority and opt out of UEFA competition.

[GypsyBlackCat]

CAS turned away Legia's initial request "that [the club] be provisionally admitted to participate in UEFA Champions League matches until the CAS renders its final arbitral award" in order to confirm that the Maribor-Celtic tie could go ahead without Celtic having to worry that Legia might be reinstated at their expense, but Legia are still proceeding with a case for compensation anyway, however ill-advised that might be. It's not as if progress guaranteed them Champions League qualification anyway. They still would have had to navigate through another qualifying round, so it would be hard to quantify any potential loss anyway, even if they did have a legitimate case (which they don't).



I recall that, aye, but it wasn't the clubs' Jewish links (which are somewhat dubious anyway) that I was questioning. I was questioning why they'd be allowed to display flags of Israel. Is it actually the case that UEFA allow them to wave Israel flags? Judaism and Zionism are not the same thing. Whilst Judaism is a cultural/religious identity, Zionism is very much a political force.

I understand what you mean. As I understand UEFA feel both Palestinian/Israeli flags will be seen to be as a political statements because of the current conflict. So we have to want and see if Ajax and Spurs will be fined if they use Israeli flags. It's difficult to call with Ajax and Spurs but Rangers and Linfield have displayed Israeli flags at European games in the past which is a political statement.

[ArdeeBhoy]

But it was harsh on Legia, just like this fine is harsh on Dundalk. It was a mistake and a misunderstanding of the rules. If we go by DFC statement, it's even harsher because Dundalk were going by the rules and some idiots broke them.

Except that the CAS decided this and Legia even admitted they were in the wrong eventually...

As I understand UEFA feel both Palestinian/Israeli flags will be seen to be as a political statements because of the current conflict. So we have to want and see if Ajax and Spurs will be fined if they use Israeli flags. It's difficult to call with Ajax and Spurs but Rangers and Linfield have displayed Israeli flags at European games in the past which is a political statement.

All four, including the Zombies and their baby cousin have had Israeli flags on show this season, albeit at least one of them aren't going to play in a UEFA-designated competition for a while?

[GypsyBlackCat]

Except that the CAS decided this and Legia even admitted they were in the wrong eventually...



All four, including the Zombies and their baby cousin have had Israeli flags on show this season, albeit at least one of them aren't going to play in a UEFA-designated competition for a while?

Well Ajax haven't played in Europe yet and I think I covered Spurs. I haven't seen any of Linfield's European games this season so I'll take your word for it.

[bennocelt]

What else can Dundalk do though? It's a no-win for them; they're seen as either silencing their supporters' voices on the day of the game if they fulfill their obligation as requested by the UEFA delegate or they're seen as blaming the supporters for pointing out that it was these individuals' actions that got the club fined. The only other option is to refuse to recognise UEFA's authority and opt out of UEFA competition.

True, but it seems from previous fines they willfully accept them (Unless I am wrong). And if they accept this fine then why are they even bothering appealing it?

[GypsyBlackCat]

Well it looks like this whole saga has taken some kind effect in Israel and Palestine. A long-term ceasefire has being announced and Israel will ease the Gaza blockcade. They mustn't have thought the fine was a bit too much for Dundalk to pay?!

[White Horse]

Well it looks like this whole saga has taken some kind effect in Israel and Palestine. A long-term ceasefire has being announced and Israel will ease the Gaza blockcade. They mustn't have thought the fine was a bit too much for Dundalk to pay?!

Apparently, the proposed ceasefire is contingent on an agreement between the SSA and UEFA.

[Charlie Darwin]

Does this mean SSA will get their apology from UEFA now?

[bennocelt]

Ok on now to the next conflict.......Syrian flags anyone?

[DannyInvincible]

True, but it seems from previous fines they willfully accept them (Unless I am wrong). And if they accept this fine then why are they even bothering appealing it?

I don't know if it's willful or not - I don't know who'd be happy to receive a fine - but what can they do other than accept such fines really? They're in no position to refuse to pay. (I think UEFA already deduct it from their competition bonus anyway.) They can appeal the fine all they like but the end result will most likely be the same; they'll eventually have to accept the fine and might even have thrown further money down the drain on any appeal. If a club takes part in UEFA competition, they explicitly acknowledge UEFA's authority and accept the over-riding application of UEFA's governing and disciplinary regulations. The only other option is to refuse to participate in UEFA competitions or cause some serious bother between the FAI and UEFA, thereby possibly risking domestic punishment also. What other options are there to resolve these supporter issues without blaming the supporters concerned and banning them from Oriel Park?

[ATFC-1887]

Dundalk fined 20000 euro for Palestine slag vs Hadjuk Split

"Palestine slag" Oh god

[nigel-harps1954]

"Palestine slag" Oh god

Be honest, you were waiting for someone else to point that out..

[Bosco]

"Palestine slag" Oh god

Mistake or have we been discussing a completely separate topic for the last 8 pages?

[ATFC-1887]

Be honest, you were waiting for someone else to point that out..

No...Somebody already did, but i didn't notice until now.

[geysir]

I'd say the rule is more self-interested than progressive; UEFA seek to promote as neutral and apolitical an image and governing arena as possible, lest potentially-provocative imagery were to deter sponsors and investment. Offend nobody; be everyone's friend; that's the mantra. As for my own opinion of the rule, it's a terribly numbing and sanitising one that neuters football crowds and disarms them of their human sentiments, character, qualities and emotions. What are football teams really if not channels through which the human identities of their fans can be expressed? Since when did a football match have to be such a blandly cordial affair? What is and isn't objectively fit for a sporting event anyway? In an ideal world, waving Palestine flags at a Europa League qualifier would be no problem, even if orchestrated by clueless, ignorant idiots with little knowledge of the Middle Eastern conflict. I say, let fans display what they want and if something falls foul of the law of the land, then the law of the land can deal with it. It's a regressive UEFA law, that is; it stunts and chokes expression within stadia to a degree that not even the law of the land does. Need UEFA really make it their business? Is that practical?

The issues here are not the few expressions of political causes that one might come across on occasion, it's the pervasive rot of racism and fascism that infects the atmosphere at football stadiums. if you want to rid the game of all expressions of racism and fascism, even their cynical sanitised political versions, then you have to ban all political expressions not appropriate to a sporting event and I really fail to see how that should have a negative effect on atmosphere.
If at game in the 6 counties, you see a banner with the loud initials KAT displayed then you'd think that means Kill All Taigs, then you go up close and and see in small letters in the corner, Keep Antrim Tidy.
So what does not fall foul of the law, does not equate to acceptable mandatory standards of decency and respect.
What's legal does not define the standards of morality that we want at a sporting event, which is a non political, multi cultural event.
Within those UEFA limitations there is plenty of scope to express whatever but it's not a place to demonstrate your political cause no matter matter how worthy you feel your cause to be.

[TheBoss]

The daft thing about this situation is that when fans of Celtic held a Pro-Palestinian stance in 2009 against Hapoel Tel-Aviv at Celtic Park, fans were urged by some groups to wave Palestinian flags in the stadium and many did, search the web yourselves if you want to see them but what did UEFA do?, absolutely nothing.

[Nah Nah Nah Nah]

nevermind what I had posted here.....

[GypsyBlackCat]

The daft thing about this situation is that when fans of Celtic held a Pro-Palestinian stance in 2009 against Hapoel Tel-Aviv at Celtic Park, fans were urged by some groups to wave Palestinian flags in the stadium and many did, search the web yourselves if you want to see them but what did UEFA do?, absolutely nothing.

Judging by the statement by Dundalk it looks like UEFA have said Israeli and Palestinian flags are considered 'political' this season due to the current conflict.