European Qualifying 2013.

Originally Posted by Spudulika

However as LOI followers we want it all ways. We want big friendlies, but only if it means our teams are involved. We want better coverage yet complain at every little point in the coverage. We complain about lack of supporters yet denigrate barstoolers and claim they're not real fans. We want it every way and don't.

I think you'll find there isn't a unified LOI fan opinion on anything. Some like friendles, some hate them. Some want more TV coverage, some want less live TV games. There's about 10,000 people who attend our games every week and we all have our own thoughts on different issues. Stop trying to make out its otherwise

Originally Posted by Dodge

I think you'll find there isn't a unified LOI fan opinion on anything. Some like friendles, some hate them. Some want more TV coverage, some want less live TV games. There's about 10,000 people who attend our games every week and we all have our own thoughts on different issues. Stop trying to make out its otherwise

I disagree.

Originally Posted by Dodge

I think you'll find there isn't a unified LOI fan opinion on anything. Some like friendles, some hate them. Some want more TV coverage, some want less live TV games. There's about 10,000 people who attend our games every week and we all have our own thoughts on different issues. Stop trying to make out its otherwise

Well the Pats figures are certainly not helping, just over 1,000 again tonight, why are they so low for such a good side?

Also I think the 10k figure is a bit low, some weeks maybe, but for a lot of others they can get up to15k, still nothing to write home about.

Originally Posted by Spudulika

We complain about lack of supporters yet denigrate barstoolers and claim they're not real fans.

By using the word 'yet', you seem to think there's a contradiction in these two viewpoints. There clearly isn't. Barstoolers, unless I've failed to understand the definition since I fist came across it here a few years ago, are clearly not 'real fans'; ie. LOI supporters. They watch Premiership football on television and either take no interest in, or are actively hostile to, their local teams. (From the viewpoint of supporters of Irish club football I would say their 'denigration' is justified).

Originally Posted by Straightstory

By using the word 'yet', you seem to think there's a contradiction in these two viewpoints. There clearly isn't. Barstoolers, unless I've failed to understand the definition since I fist came across it here a few years ago, are clearly not 'real fans'; ie. LOI supporters. They watch Premiership football on television and either take no interest in, or are actively hostile to, their local teams. (From the viewpoint of supporters of Irish club football I would say their 'denigration' is justified).

Why? Why should they be denigrated because they don't want to join the little circle of love we have in the LOI? In a sense it's all down to perception, the sky leagues look all lovely and shiny, the LOI doesn't do itself any justice, meanwhile the meeja lead little dances of war each time they get an order from on high against the FAI. Brstoolers turned out in force when Shels played Deportivo and even Hajduk, they can be taught to appreciate the finer points of live football, but I just don't see too many of them feeling comfortable at LOI grounds.

But it's nobody's job to make them feel comfortable.

The way I see it is simple.

I like to compare it to the Matrix. The LOI is what football really is and watching the EPL/La Liga/Bundesliga etc on TV is the false illusionary world. LOI fans can offer them the choice of which pill they want to take but its up to them. If they choose not to, thats their choice, no need to slag them off for it, you offered them an alternative and they declined it.

We cant go round in life insulting others when we do not share a common thing whether it be LOI or even the kind of food you like.

"He doesn't like Oranges, which I do, but likes Orange Juice, ERRRR". "Oranges are real, the genuine thing but Orange Juice is fake and bad for you."

In this instance, like the one before, we can advise people that Oranges are cheaper and more healthier but if they continue to drink Orange Juice, what can we do to stop them, nothing.

I know there is an element that constantly insult the LOI (without actually going to a game) for their justification in following the EPL, these kinds of people are just deluded. No matter what you say, they will never change their mind even if you had the most convincing proof to the contrary and also, they were up brought with the EPL, so the EPL is only football they know and trust and find it extremely hard to shake it off.

Its very similar also to Atheists trying to convince people of faith that religion is 'this, that and other'. It is up the person of faith to decide.

CD, I agree, though why the slagging? Because they prefer to sit in a pub watching a match or travelling to stand in Richmond Park watching quality football with 1,000 others? It's simply their choice not to do so.

Bennocelt, you might not agree with what I wrote, but why should it be wrong to NOT run down others who are not interested in attending local matches? It's the attitude that prevails amongst too many LOI followers that they're somehow real fans when it's all a matter of perception.

Ultimately we all know where football stands in Ireland and we need to be honest about it. The perception of football and LOI in Ireland is one of a sport full of gurriers. While the sport crept into areas like Castleknock and such in the 1980's, that was more down to the success of the national team and the attraction of the sport for kids - it was not down to a blueprint for development from the FAI (unless I've completely missed it).

So the LOI will continue to suffer from this, largely, misconception and anyone interested in football will look at the sky leagues or the in vogue ones from the continent, and turn up the odd time for glamour ties involving LOI sides, glamour friendlies involving foreign sides and the Irish team when they're not totally awful

Originally Posted by Spudulika

CD, I agree, though why the slagging? Because they prefer to sit in a pub watching a match or travelling to stand in Richmond Park watching quality football with 1,000 others? It's simply their choice not to do so.

Because people like slagging people? It goes the other way too. The difficult for me is that I would assume most barstoolers would consider themselves patriots and Ireland fans, yet they do nothing to help the game grow here and actively conspire against it in many cases. I think people are entitled to point out hypocrisy where they see it.

Ultimately we all know where football stands in Ireland and we need to be honest about it. The perception of football and LOI in Ireland is one of a sport full of gurriers. While the sport crept into areas like Castleknock and such in the 1980's, that was more down to the success of the national team and the attraction of the sport for kids - it was not down to a blueprint for development from the FAI (unless I've completely missed it).

What?

Originally Posted by Straightstory

By using the word 'yet', you seem to think there's a contradiction in these two viewpoints. There clearly isn't. Barstoolers, unless I've failed to understand the definition since I fist came across it here a few years ago, are clearly not 'real fans'; ie. LOI supporters. They watch Premiership football on television and either take no interest in, or are actively hostile to, their local teams. (From the viewpoint of supporters of Irish club football I would say their 'denigration' is justified).

Appreciate there's many places where this is the case, but large parts of Ireland are a long way geographically from any LOI/IL side...
So people will ​take the easy option.

Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Because people like slagging people? It goes the other way too. The difficult for me is that I would assume most barstoolers would consider themselves patriots and Ireland fans, yet they do nothing to help the game grow here and actively conspire against it in many cases. I think people are entitled to point out hypocrisy where they see And people are entitled to follow teams and pursuits they want and not be ridiculed as non-fans (or at least non-real football fans). I do agree about the hypocrisy, but it cuts both ways. Many are involved at Junior or youth level with clubs, but have no reason or push to be attached to a senior side.


What?

CD, it's the prevailing and unfair attitude of the majority of the country - am I lying? Add to that the tales of mismanagement that splash across the meeja and any sympathy for LOI football disintegrates. I find it all extremely unfair, though what can be done?

Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Because people like slagging people? It goes the other way too. The difficult for me is that I would assume most barstoolers would consider themselves patriots and Ireland fans, yet they do nothing to help the game grow here and actively conspire against it in many cases. I think people are entitled to point out hypocrisy where they see it.

Know many people who would be counted as 'barstoolers';whilst accepting they know less about the game, none of them are 'conspiring' v.the LOI.
Unless you count their apathy...

And some LOI fans I know would sympathise with that even, especially when their teams are doing poorly as to why they'd bother. Or revel in the fact they're part of an 'exclusive' club of around 10 thousand people or so...

Originally Posted by Spudulika

And people are entitled to follow teams and pursuits they want and not be ridiculed as non-fans (or at least non-real football fans). I do agree about the hypocrisy, but it cuts both ways. Many are involved at Junior or youth level with clubs, but have no reason or push to be attached to a senior side.

I'm not entirely sure why they're entitled to not be ridiculed. I know there are many who are involved with youth clubs, but then again the schoolboy game is the biggest supporter of English soccer going. There is a whole separate argument about whether youth clubs have the players' and the game's best interest at heart.

CD, it's the prevailing and unfair attitude of the majority of the country - am I lying? Add to that the tales of mismanagement that splash across the meeja and any sympathy for LOI football disintegrates. I find it all extremely unfair, though what can be done?

I don't think there is a prevailing attitude towards the LOI in the country. I think a lot of self-professed football fans would be surprised to learn their is a League of Ireland. In fact, I think some people would be surprised to find out there are football games that aren't on Sky.

Tbf, not the people I know from Ireland games. They'd all be aware of local soccer.
Some of them would choose not to go in the main, whilst others live miles from any LOI club, even presuming they were interested consistently.

As for schoolboy clubs, often they will see it as being in the best interests of their players to potentially get them a more lucrative contract in Britain with the LOI as a 'fallback' ​if they didn't realise this.

People at Ireland games are a fairly unrepresentative sample.

And I'm sure schoolboy clubs do see a lucrative contract in the UK as the player's best interest, and the transfer fee in their own best interest. The fact that the majority of players who don't make it in the UK aren't up to making it in the LOI either negates the 'fallback' option.

What so the opinions of Irish soccer fans now don't count? Even the many who do go to LOI games...
Hmm.

No, read it again, carefully. People who go to Ireland games tend to be more involved with the game than those who don't. Those who go to games are a very small proportion of people who follow the game. Therefore, the people you speak to at games are not a representative sample of the country as a whole.

Except you/I didn't say that.

Not that I'd agree. Who else besides Ireland soccer/LOI fans are active in supporting the sport domestically?
Perhaps a couple of thousand people who follow grass-roots stuff...

Am excluding the 'barstoolers' on the pretext, they don't 'matter' as their views are not worth listening to...

Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Appreciate there's many places where this is the case, but large parts of Ireland are a long way geographically from any LOI/IL side...
So people will ​take the easy option.

I don't accept that as an argument really.

There's 20,000 people in Letterkenny for example. It's around 20km from Ballybofey. Of the average 600-ish at a Finn Harps game, maybe about 250 of those travel from Letterkenny direction. If Harps are going very well, that number will easily triple.

If those people can all go, what's to stop another 1,000 Letterkenny people from going, those who pack themselves into bars each Saturday/Sunday to watch Sky Sports and call themselves massive football fans?

Likewise, Ardee is roughly the same distance from both Dundalk and Drogheda. What's to stop someone like yourself travelling in and supporting those teams?

What's to stop a crowd from Ennis going to Limerick?

I understand there are areas such as west Mayo, Kerry, Carlow, Tipperary, and such that are generally just too far from grounds, and it's only disappointing the likes of Tralee Dynamos didn't get in on that basis. But there are far too many excuses out there.

I have a friend from Mullingar, who used to go into Longford from time to time when they were in the Premier and was in Lansdowne when they won the FAI cup, but now won't go near the ground. Cites it was "it's too far to travel", he'd much rather the convenience of going to the pub to watch his beloved Man Utd play.
I don't accept that excuse.

Look at some of the poorer supported teams and you'll see, most of them are either in, or right beside a large urban centre. There's no excuse for it.

Longford - 10,000 people - avg att 354
Athlone - 20,000 - avg att 456
Mervue - 75,000 (Galway city) - Avg att 256 (granted we know the problems that exist)
Bray - 32,000 - Avg att 750
Drogheda - 30,000 - Avg att 915
Cobh - 10,000 - avg att 511


That's just the tip of the iceberg. Dublin with over 1,000,000 people should be seeing at least 4,000 people at each of the grounds, but that's a more complicated issue. There's an average of close to 7,500 people between the 5 Dublin teams, which simply isn't good enough in a city of it's size.

Could go on all day on the matter, but there's no point really. It's the way the League is, and we'll just have to accept that we're living in the shadow of the English Leagues. The FAI are never going to do anything to promote their own league. Clubs struggle here because of a lack of interest from the public, and our own association don't care.

Fair points all, but given the relative derision towards even fans of the national team, whose ticket monies in theory are filtering down to the grassroots and even 'barstoolers' when they do take a passing interest, it's hard to see how the national league can achieve much credibility with a wider audience.

And that's even before you factor in that the product' is not exactly of the highest quality. Especially when you often compare to games on TV.

Wish the LOI well, but the attitude of some of its fans is as unhelpful as the inertia of the FAI in promoting the domestic league.