Homophobia in Football

No Celtic fans think of 'Tims' as insulting...or none I've ever encountered.

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Wouldn't some Celtic fans who may not necessarily have any Irish Catholic roots themselves self-identify as "tims"? Would you interpret such as insulting when it's reappropriated as a label of tribal pride?

I wouldn't be offended if somebody called me a Tim or a Taig, let alone themselves. I might have felt differently 50 or 100 years ago though. In Europe we've had some very recent brushes with violent antisemitism which is going to colour any debate. Even allowing for the fact most Spurs fans likely have no idea what they're chanted about, I can see why it would horrify people.

Their worst anti-Irish insults are 'Fenian', 'Beggar' & 'Tatty picker' FFS. May a higher power help them...

As for the Sperz thing, having lived in Tottenham, the locals were all too aware and saw it as a badge of honour, especially v.Arsenal & Chelsea!

Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

No Celtic fans think of 'Tims' as insulting...or none I've ever encountered.

That's my point though. I wouldn't view such usage as insulting either; there's clearly no intent to cause offence there. Spurs fans, be they Jewish or not, who identify as "yids" with a sense of pride wouldn't perceive that term to be insulting. Both terms - "tim" and "yid" - are still perceived as racial/ethnic/religious slurs, however, or they at least were in their original conceptions. I attach more significance to the intent behind the usage. When usage is benevolent rather than malicious, is it fair to view it in the same light as an instance of someone clearly using it to cause offence?

Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

I wouldn't be offended if somebody called me a Tim or a Taig, let alone themselves. I might have felt differently 50 or 100 years ago though. In Europe we've had some very recent brushes with violent antisemitism which is going to colour any debate. Even allowing for the fact most Spurs fans likely have no idea what they're chanted about, I can see why it would horrify people.

It depends on the context. If it was used as a genuine insult, for example, if I do something less than intelligent, and someone attributes it to me being a "stupid Paddy", I'd treat it differently to someone just calling me a "f***ing idiot"

Originally Posted by geysir

It's something else, though I don't know what that is.

Would "solidarity" be an appropriate description?

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Would "solidarity" be an appropriate description?

That description assumes they have a knowledge of something in order to feel solidarity about it.
Maybe some have.
But it just sounds so familiar with the Ajax story, fans stigmatised by association with a locality where the Jewish community are concentrated, In Spurs' case, Stamford Hill down to Stoke Newington. Spurs fans react by acquiring aspects of solidarity with the Jewish identity, some aspects for some minutes in the week. I don't get the impression it's hostile. I would defer to the opinion of Jewish community representatives whether its appropriate or not,
and not the self appoint guardian of civilisation, Peter Herbert.

Thing is there were/are other Jewish communities in traditional Arsenal & West Ham areas...
Where the local association was more subtle.

Their community tends to keep a low profile in London anyway & stay off the radar, if only because of the proximity of various potential nutjobs affecting their everyday existence as opposed to bothering about and commentating on a N.London/Middx.football club.

There's nothing in London to compare with the Stoke Newington to Stamford Hill area, when it comes to equating it with a blatant jewish identity. Orthodox just does not describe how orthodox it is.

Well, they are right next to each other. And last time I was there the Hassidic Jews had started to drift into SN.
And yeah, easily the most obvious Jewish area, even though they don't recognise modern Israel. Also have been known to protest with the Palestinians on occasion.

Not sure where they're all going to go long-tern though after they tried to buy an entire village more than a few years back.

Former Aston Villa, West Ham and Germany international midfielder Thomas Hitzlsperger has announced he is gay in a bid to break the taboo of homosexuality in sport.

The 31-year-old, who ended his playing career in September due to persistent injuries,told Germany’s Die Zeit newspaper that now was “a good time” for him to reveal his true sexuality.

“I’m coming out about my homosexuality because I want to move the discussion about homosexuality among professional sportspeople forwards,” Hitzlsperger said.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakin...ay-619155.html

Former Chelsea star Alex in homophobic row


On the same day former Germany international Thomas Hitzlsperger came out, PSG defender Alex has become embroiled in a row after claiming that "God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Yves".

Thomas Hitzlsperger has expressed his gratitude for the kind messages of support he has received after announcing he is gay.
Hitzlsperger, who retired in September, took to Twitter to thank "everyone" while sports stars past and present also welcomed the news.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/form...-29899641.html

Must have been a difficult one for him.

Imagine having to admit you used to play for West Ham.

Why do gay people feel the need to tell the public media about their sexual orientation. It is a matter for the person, their family and their friends. So what if someones gay, that fact that people are "Coming Out" makes it a issue and makes people talk about it negatively (Oh, Did you hear your man is gay?) rather than it being part of modern society. These public announcements, I think, cause gay people to be more pressured into having to tell the media their sexuality, causing them mental torture into when to "tell their secret".

Originally Posted by TheBoss

Why do gay people feel the need to tell the public media about their sexual orientation. It is a matter for the person, their family and their friends. So what if someones gay, that fact that people are "Coming Out" makes it a issue and makes people talk about it negatively (Oh, Did you hear your man is gay?) rather than it being part of modern society. These public announcements, I think, cause gay people to be more pressured into having to tell the media their sexuality, causing them mental torture into when to "tell their secret".

I can kind of see your point, but "coming out" yourself gives you the power. Now Hitzlsperger is out, it's no big deal to the media if he has a boyfriend, but could you imagine the media circus there would have been if he'd be spotted by Bild or some other rag cuddling up to a boyfriend in public before this? If I was a gay person in the public eye, I think I'd much rather come out on my own terms.

Grame Le Saux on homophobic abuse throughout his career, several big names come out of this incredibly badly: http://reflectionsasia.wordpress.com...ked-my-career/

I remember thinking that Le Saux's "defence" was a PR master stroke when he got into trouble over punching Robbie Fowler off the ball after Fowler had taunted him by pointing up his own bum.

His defence was that he lost his rag because has to put up with so much abuse because he's educated and articulate. I thought it was a load of tosh at the time. My recollection of Le Saux was of an aggressive, snarly player with a dark side, not afraid to dive, retaliate or commit bad tackles to gain advantage. He played the game in a pretty bad spirit. When he lost his rag he claimed he was a victim of his background and he ended up putting football in the dock to escape punishment. It worked. Fowler was an idiot but Le Saux was entirely in character by hitting him.

I've no doubt his accusations about homophobia are accurate and he's right to speak out, but I can't help feel the real reason he wasn't liked by opponents and fans was simply because he was a wangcker on the pitch.

It seems reasonable to assume that someone taking daily bullying and abuse might play the game in a less than happy clappy spirit.

Who knows? I think he was a toe rag on the pitch all through his career. I have rarely disliked a player so much. I think it's stretching it a bit to put it all down to Andy Townsend et al calling him a poof, which was utterly moronic of course.

That said, his criticism of a Fowler, especially subsequent to that incident, seems totally fair if true and makes Fowler out to be a complete caveman. Isn't Fowler a pundit for BBC now? They should put him on the spot.

So is Savage.