Republic of Ireland V Norway - Wednesday, 17th November 2010 - Friendly

**tommy_c12000** · 08/11/2010, 4:22 PM

Originally Posted by Lenny82

Apparently Keane is to go for a scan for an injury picked up in training at Spurs. Any word on when Folan is expected to be fit? If both were to withdraw, would he call Stokes or Sheridan up? Anyone any idea on how Sheridan has been doing lately?

Sheridan has been an unused sub for the last 2 games (one league and one Europa league game) and he came on as a sub in the game before that. Overall this year he has made 8 appearances for CSKA with 3 goals. Don't think he is setting the world alight by any means after a promising start. But then again I have never seen CSKA Sofia play a full game so I'm purely speculating on raw data. He certainly doesn't warrant a place ahead of Stokes in my opinion

http://www.soccerway.com/teams/bulgaria/pfc-cska-sofia/

**geysir** · 08/11/2010, 6:17 PM

Originally Posted by Kingdom

To be fair, and I'm really not trying to start an argument, but you might as well put "FACT!" beside this point, because it's an opinion more than anything else really? Unless of course you present them, and I'll accept that 100%

There is very little to argue against

The first half of the game against Russia is a no brainer with the midfield stats, Whelan was just about invisible and Green's involvement I have already given account in that post match chat. Against Slovakia for the 40 minutes he was on, approx Green gave away possession 4 times and completed 16 passes.
That is a meaningless stat because it does not tell the type of pass completed or the danger from the missed passes. Glen was guilty of the worst missed pass in the first half as well as the sloppy defending for their goal. To look at the other aspects of the CM role, re Green's positioning - I'd give 8/10; for his covering of a Slovak player I�d give 9/10. For his mobility I�d give 8/10, in fact he was everywhere and yet he did not leave a gap on the right side. He won 4 headers, made 5 successful attempts at harrying and won 2 tackles and a free.

Again to be fair, that's probably the worst weakness for a central midfielder to have! At least Whelan's weakness is his lack of pace.

Glen has lost a lot more since losing his place on the Stoke team. He is less mobile, crucially he is a few fractions more sluggish and his alertness has dropped. Greens weak first touch was far from being our weakness, he lost the ball because of it - well outside the danger area - on 2 occasions.

We weren't as combative I would describe as being more accurate, something both myself and Stuttgart acknowledged openly and positively. I think that had more to do with certain posters wanting certain players to be doing well i.e Gibson>Green.

If you observe the actual amount of work done by Green in the first half, you may just see the main reason why we were less combative and less effective after he went off.

would acknowledge that it might be biased for having a fondness for Whelan, but I'd have Green out of the squad completely, whereas I'd be happy for Whelan to be a squad member.

We are playing with 2 CM in a defined role at CM so it's no use to be thinking of playing Fahey there. ATM, there is only Wilson in competition for one of the starting CM spots. Whelan has the advantage - proven himself in the past but he has seriously gone off the boil this season. Against Russia and Slovakia, Green was, by a country mile, the more effective of that CM pair.

**rebelmusic** · 08/11/2010, 6:21 PM

Lets be fair Geysir - Whelan was shocking, Green was a fraction better. We simply had no midfield in either of those matches.

**ifk101** · 08/11/2010, 6:23 PM

"made 5 successful attempts at harrying"

Where are you pulling these stats from?

**Fixer82** · 09/11/2010, 12:24 AM

When is Keith Andrews due back?

**Colbert Report** · 09/11/2010, 12:29 AM

Originally Posted by Fixer82

When is Keith Andrews due back?

K Andrews Groin Strain 13th Nov 10

http://www.physioroom.com/news/engli...0b480e6179b5f6

**Supreme feet** · 09/11/2010, 5:37 AM

It's such a pity Meyler and McCarthy have been injured. We don't necessarily need to change the formation, or take the risk of putting lightweight, attack-minded players in the centre of midfield; we just need players who can do the simple midfield things right at international level. In the few games that Steven Reid played under Trap, a lot of play went through midfield, and we actually passed the ball quite well. With Meyler and McCarthy in there, we'd have a good blend of aggression, presence and basic passing ability. Whelan and Andrews can do it in one-off games when in form, but don't really have the natural talent to do it consistently, while the less said about Green the better. The two younger lads have the natural talent to excel in Trapattoni's set-up, and it's no coincidence that they were both called up in May. Question remains; will he still pick them in February? I'm 'glass-half-full' when it comes to Trap, but if he ignores the two lads when they're fully fit, I'll be very disappointed with him. Central midfield needs urgent reconstruction.

**Kingdom** · 09/11/2010, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by geysir

There is very little to argue against

The first half of the game against Russia is a no brainer with the midfield stats, Whelan was just about invisible and Green's involvement I have already given account in that post match chat.

There was good discussion (if not here, then on ybig) about the Whelan/Green axis vs Russia. One viewpoint, the obvious one, was thet Whelan didn't work at all, and that Green was doing the harrying in addition to the tactics being wrong.
An alternate view was that Green's breaking of the bank of 4 (narrow as it was due to the wingers coming infield) left Whelan isolated and unable to counter the flow of Denisov, Shirakov and Ziryanov (It was described as the Whelan Triangle somewhere). I would agree with it to an extent, but I've admitted that perhaps I'm biased in Whelan's favour.

Against Slovakia for the 40 minutes he was on, approx Green gave away possession 4 times and completed 16 passes.
That is a meaningless stat because it does not tell the type of pass completed or the danger from the missed passes. Glen was guilty of the worst missed pass in the first half as well as the sloppy defending for their goal. To look at the other aspects of the CM role, re Green's positioning - I'd give 8/10; for his covering of a Slovak player I�d give 9/10. For his mobility I�d give 8/10, in fact he was everywhere and yet he did not leave a gap on the right side. He won 4 headers, made 5 successful attempts at harrying and won 2 tackles and a free.

Fair play Geysir, you did the research and the stats to back up your argument, I appreciate that. We acknowledge that Slovakia were more prominent when he went off, even if our ball retention improved.

Glen has lost a lot more since losing his place on the Stoke team. He is less mobile, crucially he is a few fractions more sluggish and his alertness has dropped. Greens weak first touch was far from being our weakness, he lost the ball because of it - well outside the danger area - on 2 occasions.

I agree with this, I just didn't communicate that well enough, using "pace" incorrectly.

If you observe the actual amount of work done by Green in the first half, you may just see the main reason why we were less combative and less effective after he went off.

We are playing with 2 CM in a defined role at CM so it's no use to be thinking of playing Fahey there. ATM, there is only Wilson in competition for one of the starting CM spots. Whelan has the advantage - proven himself in the past but he has seriously gone off the boil this season. Against Russia and Slovakia, Green was, by a country mile, the more effective of that CM pair

.

In terms of a 442, yes I agree with Fahey not being suitable for the role of our 2 Cm's. I disagree that only Marc Wilson is in the hunt for a spot. I fully believe McCarthy is our boy wonder and is capable of filling that role. David Meyler looks like he would also be able to do it, albeit he's slightly 'greener' than McCarthy. Add to them the existing triumvirate of Whelan Andrews & Green (even if I wouldn't have him there) and there are options.

Now, if you were to say that Fahey couldn't play in a CM x 2 in a 4-2-3-1 formation I would disagree with that perhaps. If we were to less rigid, there is scope to play what people refer to as a "quarterback", as part of the 2 - Pirlo being a good example. You don't have to throw yourself into tackles to be a good centre midfielder. Sure it helps, but with good positioning or reading you can be just as effective. Just look at Xabi Alonso.

Fair play Geysir, enjoying those posts.

**geysir** · 09/11/2010, 1:14 PM

Originally Posted by Kingdom

In terms of a 442, yes I agree with Fahey not being suitable for the role of our 2 Cm's. I disagree that only Marc Wilson is in the hunt for a spot. I fully believe McCarthy is our boy wonder and is capable of filling that role. David Meyler looks like he would also be able to do it, albeit he's slightly 'greener' than McCarthy. Add to them the existing triumvirate of Whelan Andrews & Green (even if I wouldn't have him there) and there are options.

Now, if you were to say that Fahey couldn't play in a CM x 2 in a 4-2-3-1 formation I would disagree with that perhaps. If we were to less rigid, there is scope to play what people refer to as a "quarterback", as part of the 2 - Pirlo being a good example. You don't have to throw yourself into tackles to be a good centre midfielder. Sure it helps, but with good positioning or reading you can be just as effective. Just look at Xabi Alonso.

I did write, ATM Wilson is the only competition for a starting place at CM. I mean't specifically for this upcoming game.
In many minds, McCarthy (recovery permitting) is good enough and Meyler's recovery will be interesting. Trap atm, sees a possibility for McCarthy to play in front of a lone striker. I think, once McCarthy gets his chance in a friendly, he will show enough that he can fit into the CM role.

On Fahey, atm I can't see Trap using him at CM, I haven't seen enough of him to have an opinion about whether he could or not.

**geysir** · 09/11/2010, 1:41 PM

Originally Posted by ifk101

"made 5 successful attempts at harrying"

Where are you pulling these stats from?

Football statistic = A fact or piece of data from a study of the game.
In this context "harrying" refers to the action of closing down an opponent. Green applied himself so diligently to the task, that "harrying" is a good verb to use to describe the action.

**theworm2345** · 09/11/2010, 1:56 PM

Originally Posted by geysir

Football statistic = A fact or piece of data from a study of the game.
In this context "harrying" refers to the action of closing down an opponent. Green applied himself so diligently to the task, that "harrying" is a good verb to use to describe the action.

I think the word is "harrowing"

**ifk101** · 09/11/2010, 2:44 PM

Originally Posted by geysir

Football statistic = A fact or piece of data from a study of the game.
In this context "harrying" refers to the action of closing down an opponent. Green applied himself so diligently to the task, that "harrying" is a good verb to use to describe the action.

So they are your own stats then?

**boovidge** · 09/11/2010, 4:13 PM

Originally Posted by theworm2345

I think the word is "harrowing"

I find paul green's presence in the midfield quite harrowing.

**theworm2345** · 09/11/2010, 4:17 PM

Originally Posted by boovidge

I find paul green's presence in the midfield quite harrowing.

Yes thats what I meant

**Alf Honn** · 09/11/2010, 5:10 PM

Originally Posted by geysir

Trap atm, sees a possibility for McCarthy to play in front of a lone striker.

This is a complete smokescreen by Trap. He doesn't do one 'behind or in front of the striker.'

Apart from Bari when he dropped Keane in behind Folan and Doyle after Italy went down to ten and we were chasing the game, it's been the rigid 4-4-2 throughout including every friendlies.

Jaysus, he was spinning the media a line about using Andy Reid 'behind the striker' for the Poland game a few years back and then axed him completely from the squad. He even mentioned Stephen Baldy as a possible in this role when it was 50/50 of him coming back, in his words.

**paul_oshea** · 09/11/2010, 5:27 PM

There is a great love in going on in these posts

Alf Honn, you could be onto something alright. Time will only tell, but id be leaning to the right on this.

**Predator** · 09/11/2010, 7:51 PM

Originally Posted by Alf Honn

This is a complete smokescreen by Trap.

The great Italian pantomime.
To be honest, I think Trapattoni simply sees 4-4-2 as the best system for the players at his disposal. We can't afford to drop one striker in order to adopt a 4-5-1 formation when Keane and Doyle are among our best players.