Lisbon Treaty

[SMorgan]

The arrogance and greed of Ireland summed up in one easy sentence

I think you've done a good job in summing up the stupidy of some. A bit of a tip for the future, if you don't understand something then don't comment.

[jebus]

I think you've done a good job in summing up the stupidy of some. A bit of a tip for the future, if you don't understand something then don't comment.

Aren't you the blind guy who couldn't see the No scare posters though?

[SMorgan]

Aren't you the blind guy who couldn't see the No scare posters though?

That's absolutely right.

But do I know they were there because Cowen mentioned them every single time he was interviewed along with telling us about people that he knows that are voting No because they think they were told they'd have to store nuclear waste in their back gardens if they don't!!

[jebus]

But do I know they were there because Cowen mentioned them every single time he was interviewed along with telling us about people that he knows that are voting No because they think they were told they'd have to store nuclear waste in their back gardens if they don't!!

I don't know, do you?

[pete]

Any chance we can stay on topic & avoid name calling so this thread can stay open?

[BohsPartisan]

By ruling elite you mean the democratically elected representitives of the people of Europe?

Do you think those guys rule anything? They're just puppets. The ruling elite are the corporations, the banks, the media, and unelected bodies like the EU commission. In particular the corporations make the big decisions that effect our lives. They control production and distribution of goods and services.

[GavinZac]

Do you think those guys rule anything? They're just puppets. The ruling elite are the corporations, the banks, the media, and unelected bodies like the EU commission. In particular the corporations make the big decisions that effect our lives. They control production and distribution of goods and services.

Can we leave aside pie-in-sky fantasies of anti-corporate communist/agri-anarchy revolution and talk like big boys?

[shantykelly]

i've been following some of the establishment reactions to the referendum decision across europe, and its left me curious. how do those who voted yes feel about some of the following:

Spain's centre-left El Pais said Europe is 'blocked once again by a new crisis,' but the liberal El Mundo suggested the way forward was for the other 26 EU member states to ratify the Lisbon Treaty, forcing Ireland to revise its Constitution which requires it to consult voters, or to hold a new referendum.

and

The French language daily La Libre Belgique in Belgium said that submitting such a complex document to a popular vote was 'an inept exercise.' Le Soir agreed, calling it 'Russia roulette'.
whilst

Poland's centre-left daily Gazeta Wyborcza called it 'a very bad sign for the whole European Union' and 'a gift to the Polish enemies of the EU.'

debate about eh hows and whys of the no vote, but are any yes voters annoyed about some of these comments? ireland put the treaty to a public referendum, and of those who voted, the majority voted no. democracy in action, can't argue with that. but how do youse feel about non-irish sources telling you how to run your own politcal establishment?

[Wangball]

I'm personally delighted that the No Vote came out on top, the very thought of increasing the say of Vichy France & the Fourth Reich in the running of our country chills me to the bone!

Would think that the No Vote's strong finish had something to do with the French Foreign Minister's stupid comments about Ireland owing the EU....Relatives of mine died in fields in France trying to liberate that country from his new best pals Nazi Army...his ancestors were probably rolling over somewhere showing their yellow bellies and harrying local Jews from their homes

[GavinZac]

i've been following some of the establishment reactions to the referendum decision across europe, and its left me curious. how do those who voted yes feel about some of the following:

Spain's centre-left El Pais said Europe is 'blocked once again by a new crisis,' but the liberal El Mundo suggested the way forward was for the other 26 EU member states to ratify the Lisbon Treaty, forcing Ireland to revise its Constitution which requires it to consult voters, or to hold a new referendum.

I don't know. I certainly would be uncomfortable with circumventing the referendum now. Whether or not one was needed can be debated on and on, but once you've given it I don't think you can really take it away. What needs to be done is the hand holding I spoke about earlier. Sure, write 2 paragraphs in plain English that reinforce that none of the No campaigns concerns are valid, and paste it to the end of the treaty, but you'd still have complaints about giving it another go. We're sort of stuck.

The French language daily La Libre Belgique in Belgium said that submitting such a complex document to a popular vote was 'an inept exercise.' Le Soir agreed, calling it 'Russia roulette'.

Likewise as above. Inept is a pretty good way to describe the Yes campaign.

Poland's centre-left daily Gazeta Wyborcza called it 'a very bad sign for the whole European Union' and 'a gift to the Polish enemies of the EU.'

Sounds about right.

. but how do youse feel about non-irish sources telling you how to run your own politcal establishment?

Quite secure about it to be honest. They can't force us to anything, but they're entitled to their opinions.

[shantykelly]

I'm personally delighted that the No Vote came out on top, the very thought of increasing the say of Vichy France & the Fourth Reich in the running of our country chills me to the bone!

Would think that the No Vote's strong finish had something to do with the French Foreign Minister's stupid comments about Ireland owing the EU....Relatives of mine died in fields in France trying to liberate that country from his new best pals Nazi Army...his ancestors were probably rolling over somewhere showing their yellow bellies and harrying local Jews from their homes

eh?? Vichy france was a puppet state for the rump of france that wasnt occupied by the Germans. Hardly an imperial powerhouse trying gain control of ireland by stealth. and i would hardly call todays germany the fourth reich. their current army strength lies at about 6 divisions. the IDF has a strength of approximately 1 division. cant seem them jack boots marching this way any time soon.

given the choice, i would have voted no. but dear god, please dont let anyone think that the above would have been my reasoning behind it.

[BohsPartisan]

Can we leave aside pie-in-sky fantasies of anti-corporate communist/agri-anarchy revolution and talk like big boys?

Who do you think calls the shots then? You think the big corporations, some of whose wealth is bigger than that of a lot of nations aren't calling the shots? You know, those guys who fund all the major political parties across the continent, who own the media, who make fortunes manufacturing weaponry that they sell to national governments, who thrive on keeping fossil fuels the main source of energy, who are able to call out the police to break strikes and stop protests? Then you are very naive. Big boys deal in the truth not the fantasy that we somehow have control over our own governments.

What were the main motivations for the war in Iraq? Did Bush's buddies in big business not call the shots on that one? Or do you live the fantasy that somehow the EU is different, a benign entity that cares for its people a kind of political Virgin Mary standing up against the big bad USA? You continue to argue your point starting from the laughable premise that the state is somehow a neutral body that treats all equally and that if we don't like how things are going we simply have to cast a vote. A place where our leaders have no ulterior motives or hidden agendas and are simply good honest folk who are there to serve the people.

[GavinZac]

Who do you think calls the shots then? You think the big corporations, some of whose wealth is bigger than that of a lot of nations aren't calling the shots? You know, those guys who fund all the major political parties across the continent, who own the media, who make fortunes manufacturing weaponry that they sell to national governments, who thrive on keeping fossil fuels the main source of energy, who are able to call out the police to break strikes and stop protests? Then you are very naive. Big boys deal in the truth not the fantasy that we somehow have control over our own governments.

What were the main motivations for the war in Iraq? Did Bush's buddies in big business not call the shots on that one? Or do you live the fantasy that somehow the EU is different, a benign entity that cares for its people a kind of political Virgin Mary standing up against the big bad USA? You continue to argue your point starting from the laughable premise that the state is somehow a neutral body that treats all equally and that if we don't like how things are going we simply have to cast a vote. A place where our leaders have no ulterior motives or hidden agendas and are simply good honest folk who are there to serve the people.

When did I say any of that? This thread is about the Lisbon Treaty and the aftermath of the vote. Now, unless you feel like taking a gang of guerrillas up to the Wicklow mountains (I'd probably join you, whats the worst that could happen? I reckon we'd outrun our 3 tanks and the green-painted cessenas are hardly very good at ground-straffing) to try to overthrow our corporate overlords, can we go back on topic?

[OneRedArmy]

Who do you think calls the shots then? You think the big corporations, some of whose wealth is bigger than that of a lot of nations aren't calling the shots? You know, those guys who fund all the major political parties across the continent, who own the media, who make fortunes manufacturing weaponry that they sell to national governments, who thrive on keeping fossil fuels the main source of energy, who are able to call out the police to break strikes and stop protests? Then you are very naive. Big boys deal in the truth not the fantasy that we somehow have control over our own governments.

What were the main motivations for the war in Iraq? Did Bush's buddies in big business not call the shots on that one? Or do you live the fantasy that somehow the EU is different, a benign entity that cares for its people a kind of political Virgin Mary standing up against the big bad USA? You continue to argue your point starting from the laughable premise that the state is somehow a neutral body that treats all equally and that if we don't like how things are going we simply have to cast a vote. A place where our leaders have no ulterior motives or hidden agendas and are simply good honest folk who are there to serve the people.

A) The EU is different to the US. Demonstrably. In many, many ways.

B) If you look historically, I think you'll find the unions have had considerably more clout in EU member states than global corporations.

C) Please spare us the Das Kapital rhetoric. A lot has changed since then. Whatever about the failures of capitalism (and by God there are some), Marx and Engels are well past their sell by date.

[OneRedArmy]

I'm personally delighted that the No Vote came out on top, the very thought of increasing the say of Vichy France & the Fourth Reich in the running of our country chills me to the bone!

Would think that the No Vote's strong finish had something to do with the French Foreign Minister's stupid comments about Ireland owing the EU....Relatives of mine died in fields in France trying to liberate that country from his new best pals Nazi Army...his ancestors were probably rolling over somewhere showing their yellow bellies and harrying local Jews from their homes

Do you spend your free time watching reruns of Dads Army Das Boot and Saving Private Ryan?

I suppose you still hold a grudge against Dev or Collins too?

[Wangball]

Do you spend your free time watching reruns of Dads Army Das Boot and Saving Private Ryan?

I suppose you still hold a grudge against Dev or Collins too?

Dad????

[pete]

What were the main motivations for the war in Iraq? Did Bush's buddies in big business not call the shots on that one? Or do you live the fantasy that somehow the EU is different, a benign entity that cares for its people a kind of political Virgin Mary standing up against the big bad USA? You continue to argue your point starting from the laughable premise that the state is somehow a neutral body that treats all equally and that if we don't like how things are going we simply have to cast a vote. A place where our leaders have no ulterior motives or hidden agendas and are simply good honest folk who are there to serve the people.

What has the Iraq War got to do with the Lisbon Treaty? Didn't France & Germany oppose the US?



Ireland has been pro EU for years & while the rejection of the Lisbon Treaty was not anti-EU for many people it does seem the number of euro sceptics is growing now the cash is drying up. The 'race to the bottom' rhetoric is boring as historically the EU has moved jobs to the least developed countries. Jobs moved to Ireland when our standard of living was low & the same is happening in Eastern Europe. You will see the same worldwide - Just look at where Korea was 30-40 years ago & now a rival to Japan in technology.

[BohsPartisan]

@ORA what has changed since then specifically with regards to anything Marx wrote in Capital (in the unlikely event you read any of it). If Marx's ideas were so out of date, why was he voted thinker of the Millenium by British academics? Why do so many economists say that Marx perfectly describes Capitalism in his economic works?
And if you think the Unions have more "clout" in the EU than corporations well, its hard to argue with a hypothesis so dumb. It simply is not the case.

@Pete - obviously not reading the substance of the post as usual, that was a reply to GavinZac's post here http://foot.ie/showpost.php?p=963758&postcount=787 oh and same to you gav. It was to do with something you specifically said questioning the power of corporations. I was trying to tease out why you think that view is Pie in the Sky.

[GavinZac]

It was to do with something you specifically said questioning the power of corporations. I was trying to tease out why you think that view is Pie in the Sky.

I didn't question the power of corporations. However, it is "pie-in-the-sky" to discuss the burgeoning overthrow of the oligarchy. The topic is the Lisbon Treaty, which has little or nothing to do with Marxist class struggle and more to do with whether or not we can veto EU changes in tax structures. Now, we've wasted a couple of pages on your voting is pointless, burn the fast food joint rant, can we get back to the substance, as you put it?

[BohsPartisan]

I didn't question the power of corporations. However, it is "pie-in-the-sky" to discuss the burgeoning overthrow of the oligarchy. The topic is the Lisbon Treaty, which has little or nothing to do with Marxist class struggle and more to do with whether or not we can veto EU changes in tax structures. Now, we've wasted a couple of pages on your voting is pointless, burn the fast food joint rant, can we get back to the substance, as you put it?

Obviously you have your ideas in a twist. If I though voting was pointless why was I arguing for a no vote? Or are you deliberately lying to misrepresent my position (a little trick you picked up from your fellow Yes campaigners) Also bringing Black Block tactics into the discussion is as disingenuous as the Yes sides constant use of Coir to discredit the no side.

My "rant" was an answer to a question on what the alternative to Lisbon is. My point being, there is no alternative because the problem is not just this particularly treaty, the problem is the EU, its unelected cabinet and the power of the European Round Table of Industrialists. The only alternative to Lisbon and the EU is to replace that with a democratic European federation and real democracy is impossible as long as these people hold power.