Lisbon Treaty

[pete]

While I acknowledge posters on polls can only got for sound bite phrases there are some seriously misleading ones around. Some are also anonymous which I thought was illegal?

I doubt Libertas are influencing many people but has any one been able to figure out why they are against the Treaty?

I wouldn't trust all Indymedia material but good article here

[holidaysong]

'Coir' are the group behind the 'People Died for our Freedom, Don't throw it away' ones, although thier name does not appear on the poster.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/irishex...801-qqqx=1.asp

[jebus]

'Coir' are the group behind the 'People Died for our Freedom, Don't throw it away' ones, although thier name does not appear on the poster.

Not trying to wind anyone up here, but haven't we thrown away the Ireland the rebels fought for quite a few years ago anyway? I doubt the current model of the Republic is what they fought for, my opinion on the matter anyway

[Calcio Jack]

I regard myself as being a reasonably intelligent individual, but so far having read widely on this issue, I'm still not so much confused but becoming more cynical by the day...reason being is that I don't accept that the main reason for introducing the Treaty is to streamline the running of the EU.IMO it seems to run fairly reasonably and the changes mooted won't IMO improve it's day to day running by much.

Thus at this point I'm asking myself what is going on here ? locally the 'yes' side seem to be making veiled threats as to how we'll be vilified if we say 'no' but not giving us any positvie reasons to vote yes.

On the 'no' side a spooky group called Liberatas has as bedfellows two sinister Groups Sinn Fein and the Catholic Church with the farmers (IMO a group that only looks to it's own agenda) also supporting a 'no'.

So I feel like I'm caught between a rock and a hard place..so i've looked to our Euro Politicians for guidance...what do I get but laughing hyena Charlie McCreevy and Machcivelli Cox pushing for a 'yes' ... so on mature reflection I'm voting for dustin.

[mypost]

I am also happy that we keep control over tax policy.

I am not convinced by the tax policy argument. There is no doubt in my mind, that the EU want our tax system brought into line with the uniform rate across Europe.

Also, this brings us back to 1987, and FF's pledge to cut taxes before the general election. FF won it, and increased taxes from the outgoing FG-Lab coalition by £100 million, closing hospitals, and cutting public services in the process which cripplied the country. Now, 20 years later, they insist our tax rate will be unaffected from ratifying this treaty. Question is, with their record, are you willing to believe them??

[KevB76]

Also, this brings us back to 1987, and FF's pledge to cut taxes before the general election. FF won it, and increased taxes from the outgoing FG-Lab coalition by £100 million, closing hospitals, and cutting public services in the process which cripplied the country. Now, 20 years later, they insist our tax rate will be unaffected from ratifying this treaty. Question is, with their record, are you willing to believe them??

1987 ? Try 2007 ....didnt they also promise tax cuts in the run up to last years election only to back-track immediately after being elected (not that anyone was taken in by it anyway, it was so blatantly made up). Just shows what a load of mugs they think we are, just tell us what we want to hear, doesnt matter if there's any truth behind it as long as they get what they want. Whats different this time ? Why believe they have our best interests at heart this time ?

[KevB76]

....the farmers (IMO a group that only looks to it's own agenda) also supporting a 'no'.

Ehhhh, yeah. I mean who's interests did you expect them to look after ?
For farmers (as a group) read trade union, its the same idea.

[Poor Student]

I am not convinced by the tax policy argument. There is no doubt in my mind, that the EU want our tax system brought into line with the uniform rate across Europe.

Also, this brings us back to 1987, and FF's pledge to cut taxes before the general election. FF won it, and increased taxes from the outgoing FG-Lab coalition by £100 million, closing hospitals, and cutting public services in the process which cripplied the country. Now, 20 years later, they insist our tax rate will be unaffected from ratifying this treaty. Question is, with their record, are you willing to believe them??

Fianna Fail promised to reduce taxes, and they themselves increased the taxes. Your point is a non sequitur. A political party told a lie twenty one years ago so they might be telling a lie about this. If you used that logic in basing your voting behaviour you may as well just give up. You're clutching at straws trying to bind those two incidents together.

[mypost]

I'm not binding the incidents together. I'm citing one moment in time, when the country was on it's knees, they made a weighty promise, which only made things worse. Now they're telling us to ratify a referendum, that offers no benefit to Ireland. They're using arguments that carry no weight in order to sell it to us. With their history of lies, corruption, and empty promises, will you believe them this time?

[Calcio Jack]

[QUOTE=KevB76;943623]Ehhhh, yeah. I mean who's interests did you expect them to look after ?
For farmers (as a group) read trade union, its the same idea.[/QUOT

What I mean is that IMO they are the most self centred group of individuals in Irish society...

[pete]

I am not convinced by the tax policy argument. There is no doubt in my mind, that the EU want our tax system brought into line with the uniform rate across Europe.

Do you think the UK would have approved this Treaty if there was a threat to taxes? There is zero threat to direct taxes in this Treaty. It could be argued that indirect taxes are anti-competitive but our VAT rates are higher than most so not likely to increase - it is far fetched anyway as among others the UK would never stand for it.

[mypost]

Do you think the UK would have approved this Treaty if there was a threat to taxes? There is zero threat to direct taxes in this Treaty. It could be argued that indirect taxes are anti-competitive but our VAT rates are higher than most so not likely to increase - it is far fetched anyway as among others the UK would never stand for it.

The UK stands to benefit more than most from the constitution, and don't require it to be put to a referendum. That get out, prevented it from being rejected there.

[oldyouth]

I haven't read it fully yet, but I will. As of now, because the Shinners are canvassing for a No Vote, I'm likely to be voting Yes.

[dahamsta]

Indeed, but Fianna Fail, Fine Gael and Labour are campaigning for a Yes...

[superfrank]

Whichever way you vote, you'll be siding with one of the two divides.

I'm leaning towards Yes at the moment, although this may change if I go to the Lucinda Creighton meeting next Tuesday in Donnybrook.

My reasoning for voting Yes is probably ill-informed but my understanding, so far, is that a Yes vote will overall lead to a more democratic EU, i.e. no disproportionate imbalance in each members' voting strength and I'm a firm believer in democracy.

[dfx-]

I'm not binding the incidents together. I'm citing one moment in time, when the country was on it's knees, they made a weighty promise, which only made things worse. Now they're telling us to ratify a referendum, that offers no benefit to Ireland. They're using arguments that carry no weight in order to sell it to us. With their history of lies, corruption, and empty promises, will you believe them this time?

Soooo, in other words, you are saying that they lied one moment in time 21 years ago and saying that this is another one.

There is no other reason to state anything about something 21 years ago otherwise.

At the moment, I'm open to either side. Neither side has convinced me one way or the other. I want to know what's good for Europe, not just Ireland in a parochial sense. The Government's history has nothing to do with it, getting revenge on the Government either. If I go in undecided, I'll vote no instead of ratifying something I'm not sure of, so the onus is on the yes vote. And that's a big failure at the minute - I'm not buying any yes arguments yet and they haven't been very strong arguments so far..

[rebelarmyexile]

After reading the treaty, it became apparent to me that the main points the No side are pushing are invalid, (in soverinty, tax, defence) and lot of silly points made by them too. Im personally not very Pro-Europe (in the Tory sense, not SF style anti-EU) but cant really see what the problem in voting YES is, seems to make sense to me.

[Calcio Jack]

[QUOTE=Calcio Jack;943802]

Ehhhh, yeah. I mean who's interests did you expect them to look after ?
For farmers (as a group) read trade union, its the same idea.[/QUOT

What I mean is that IMO they are the most self centred group of individuals in Irish society...

The above post was edited or more correctly cut by Pete, who asked that "personal rants be kept off this forum"...it wasn't a personal rant and everything I said was factual, so you want to play censor fine.... but IMO what you did was pathetic and unjustified....if you disagree then let us know which part was a rant ??

[Poor Student]

I'm not binding the incidents together. I'm citing one moment in time, when the country was on it's knees, they made a weighty promise, which only made things worse. Now they're telling us to ratify a referendum, that offers no benefit to Ireland. They're using arguments that carry no weight in order to sell it to us. With their history of lies, corruption, and empty promises, will you believe them this time?

You're taking one instance of a political party not keeping a promise two decades ago unrelated to one now. You may dress them up as similar but they're not at all. One is a pre-election promise the other is a referendum on a European treaty. If you took an instance of political parties not keeping their promises decades ago then you could use that form of reasoning to argue against most things.

[mypost]

You're taking one instance of a political party not keeping a promise two decades ago unrelated to one now. You may dress them up as similar but they're not at all. One is a pre-election promise the other is a referendum on a European treaty.

in other words, you are saying that they lied one moment in time 21 years ago and saying that this is another one.

There is no other reason to state anything about something 21 years ago otherwise

http://foot.ie/showpost.php?p=943782&postcount=209

My reasoning for voting Yes is probably ill-informed but....a Yes vote will overall lead to a more democratic EU

The issue to us, should be what are the benefits to Ireland from it, if any, rather than how democratic the EU is. The level of democracy in the EU has had little impact on day-to-day life here.

But while we're on the subject, the fact that only one country gets the opportunity to hold a referendum, is a very clear demonstration of how democratic it is.