Derry City applying for Grant Aid

[Krstic]

I'm sure EG wouldn't mind if you mentioned in passing that he came from Brentford...or Leitrim

I don't care where he's from.

What i do mind is why he continues to link the Home ground of Derry City with one of the most famous Ghettos of our troubled past, in order to enhance his arguement.

As I said before it's like me saying that Linfield are from the Shankill, because of the obvious connection between both. Which in my opinion if I did it once is excusable as being ignorant, but if I continued after having been corrected then it is deliberately misleading or mischevious.

Funny also that when I pulled him up on this issue, on post 77 and 82, he has failed to respond but then returns today with the same old arguement and added complaint of being labelled a bigot.
Why didn't he just respond to the posts questioning his motives for claiming that the brandywell stadium was in the bogside??

[dcfcsteve]

Thank you, Maribor, for a reasoned and reasonable response. I have to say that the guts of £10m of taxpayers money is a hell of a sum for 50 full-timne jobs, especially since the days of Governments pumping money into private commercial enterprises to sustain employment (e.g. De Lorean) are long gone. And do we know how many of these will be jobs as employees of DCFC?

It seems to me that your club does have a gripe, but it is with your local Council who are being unhelpful, not anyone in the Stormont, never mind NI football. Therefore, it should not be for the NI/UK/ROI taxpayer to sort this out.
In the end, this will be an amenity for Derry (and the North West, to a lesser extent). Therefore, it should be local government i.e. Derry City Council, to fund this regeneration of their own area. After all, they have apparently been more than generous with local ratepayers' property in helping out a couple of local GAA clubs.
Otherwise, they should be funded from football sources, via the appropriate Association (whether FAI or IFA, but not both). Were it to be the latter, I recall (I think on this site, from An Fear Beag?) a post where he praised the IFA for their assistance to Cliftonville in redeveloping Solitude. The sum there was just over £1m iirc.

This suggests a fundamental mis-understanding of the role and scope of local authorities in NI though EG.

Derry City Council is doing what it can do, by agreeing to a long-lease sale of the Brandywell to Brandywell properties Ltd if it can show that it has the funds to re-develop the stadium/area. This is no less than it has done for other sports (i.e. GAA) where they've had much less complicated leases and covenants to manoeuvre around (e.g. Piggery Pidge for Sean Dolans GAC).

Unlike Local authorities in England, DCC has neither the budget nor in reality the remit for genuine local authority-lead regeneration. Under the new stream-lined Councils model that will change, as more powers wil be devolved out of Belfast to each of the Councils - but as the saying goes, Councils in NI currently do little more than 'sweep the streets and bury the dead'. So given that DCC do not have any money to fund this regeneration, as you recommend, what alternative way forward do you suggest ?

And why would a rejhuvenated Brandywell only be a facilioty for the perople of Derry ? We had a Northern Ireland youth game at the stadium earlier this month, as we have done in the past. Why couldn't a rejuvenated Brandywell be a stadium for the whole of the North - regularly hosting other NI games right up to U21/U23 level ? You never know - it might even win the North some new fans for a change.

Plus - it's a very dangerous road to go down in Northern Ireland to suggest that funding should only be available centrally for anythign that is percieved as a province-wide re-development, and should be done locally (even thought the funds don't exist..) for everything else. Not only does that ignore the blatant funding bias that happens in Council chambers of all colours around the province - but a very strong arguement could also be made to say that any new home for the NI football team that didn't incorporate other sporting codes would only be of use/appeal to 50%+ of the population. So should not receive any central government funding.

This issue is nowhere near as simplistic as you're making it out to be.

[dcfcsteve]

I'm sure EG wouldn't mind if you mentioned in passing that he came from Brentford...or Leitrim

Thanks for the corrections above. I got my Fir/ Fear and Fawr mixed up. One of those might be Welsh and not mean wee. My coat? Thanks...

Fir/Fear are both Irish for Men/man.

I don't know what 'Fawr' means, but it sounds Welsh. Though the word for small in Cymraeg is 'Beg' - similar to 'Beag' as Gaeilge. Which takes us back to where we began....

[Cymro]

The word for 'small' in Cymraeg is 'bach', pronounced like you would the German composer.

Sorry Steve

[SwanVsDalton]

Without this grant aid, there is no reason why a lesser sum could not be adequate to bring the Brandywell up to the level, say, of Solitude or Shamrock Park, or even Mournview

I think it's fair to say that facilities on this island, as a whole, need to improve. And what better place is there to start than Derry? This money will create a stadium, business units and a wider community inititive that will last for years. I don't really think that putting a million in now and then another million in down the line is going to solve any problems.

NI's second city deserves decent community sports facilities and a modestly sized all seater stadium. DCFC have done all they can to secure these things, unlike most of the clubs you have listed as having as compelling an argument. Let them fight their own corner and good luck to them - they may also find that if you don't ask, you don't get.

[dcfcsteve]

The word for 'small' in Cymraeg is 'bach', pronounced like you would the German composer.

Sorry Steve

Well corrected Cymro !

[kingdom hoop]

Have you read the rest of the thread?

Painstakingly so.

Ealing Green's stance is perfectly reasonable in my opinion.

I agree that EG is coming at this from a seemingly reasoned perspective; why should funding come from two governments, why not local, etc. My problem is that he's asking why a good cause shouldn't get funding (and finding any Procrustean argument to fit) rather than appraising the application from a 'oh that would be good, how can we facilitate that' kind of perspective. Just seems a little sour for my sweet-liking palate is all.

[Schumi]

Thanks for the corrections above. I got my Fir/ Fear and Fawr mixed up. One of those might be Welsh and not mean wee. My coat? Thanks...

Haven't seen Fawr before but Ulster Irish is like a different language anyway.

[SwanVsDalton]

And why would a rejhuvenated Brandywell only be a facilioty for the perople of Derry ? We had a Northern Ireland youth game at the stadium earlier this month, as we have done in the past. Why couldn't a rejuvenated Brandywell be a stadium for the whole of the North - regularly hosting other NI games right up to U21/U23 level ? You never know - it might even win the North some new fans for a change.

This thread has already highlighted John Byrne's statement - that the Brandwell would be in line to host games in Ireland’s bid for the 2011 U-21 European Championships. It would be a massive boost to the city and the country and, with the dearth of quality stadia, Ireland's bid to hold the tournament would be severely dented without projects like the Brandywell going through.

If not we'd be facing the prospect of 4/5 top quality stadiums centralised around Belfast and Dublin.

[kingdomkerry]

Would you be happy to see the FAI or the Irish gov give funding to Linfield?

I would be not be happy as the people involved in Linfield are not Irish citizens. Therefore they should get sweet **** all from the Irish Gov

[EalingGreen]

I don't care where he's from.

What i do mind is why he continues to link the Home ground of Derry City with one of the most famous Ghettos of our troubled past, in order to enhance his arguement.

As I said before it's like me saying that Linfield are from the Shankill, because of the obvious connection between both. Which in my opinion if I did it once is excusable as being ignorant, but if I continued after having been corrected then it is deliberately misleading or mischevious.

Funny also that when I pulled him up on this issue, on post 77 and 82, he has failed to respond but then returns today with the same old arguement and added complaint of being labelled a bigot.
Why didn't he just respond to the posts questioning his motives for claiming that the brandywell stadium was in the bogside??

You are entirely mistaken when you read sectarian or political connotations into what was just a slip on my part.
For the record, your use of the terms "continue to link", or "repeatedly" [type Bogside] is very misleading. I typed it first in what was actually my 15th post on this thread. I don't quite know why I did, but there you go.
You then took me up on it at 9.49 pm, but I genuinely didn't see this, since I was composing a response to DCFC Steve (posted by me at 9.58 pm), which included the only other occasion I used it. And seeing as it had been a long day, I then logged off for the evening.
The following day, I noticed your correction for the first time, but didn't think to reply, both because the stadium location didn't actually form any significant part of my argument as far as I was concerned, but also because Gather Round answered adequately on my behalf in his post (#112).
Since then, I've not repeated my error in any of my six posts, all of which covered points which for me were much more substantive and significant.

But if my slip irks you, then accept my apology and feel free to substitute "Brandywell area", "Cityside" or "Derry" (or whatever) in the two offending posts where I used the term "Bogside" - it won't for me change the point I was trying to make.

P.S. In the meantime, if it was me you were referring to in your post #67, when you stated, "I couldn't give a rats ass if some Belfast **** is unhappy at my club" then I would point out that I might be a ****, but I most certainly am not from Belfast. Or were you making further groundless assumptions about me from my Avatar?
Now that would be ironic, don't you think?

[osarusan]

I would be not be happy as the people involved in Linfield are not Irish citizens. Therefore they should get sweet **** all from the Irish Gov

you belong here.

[Dodge]

Sweet jesus, this thread is a mess of populist crap, political nonsense and the odd bit of reasoned debate (on both sides)

Anyway, poll added. I've made it a public vote (i.e. not hidden) as I'm interested to see how many from the Republic go for either side. I think any votes not from the republic shouldn't count personally...

[Sheridan]

I don't feel I can answer that question personally, as I believe every League of Ireland club should receive massive reparations from the government for decades of neglect. Whether I think Derry City alone should benefit to the tune of £5m for this particular project is a separate matter.

[EalingGreen]

Derry City Council is doing what it can do, by agreeing to a long-lease sale of the Brandywell to Brandywell properties Ltd if it can show that it has the funds to re-develop the stadium/area. This is no less than it has done for other sports (i.e. GAA) where they've had much less complicated leases and covenants to manoeuvre around (e.g. Piggery Pidge for Sean Dolans GAC).

I had thought, from reading posts by DCFC fans both here and elsewhere, that they were not nearly so accepting of the local Council's apparent ability to facilitate GAA clubs (by granting free land etc), in contrast to its apparent inability to facilitate the football club. If my impression was mistaken then feel free to disabuse me.

Unlike Local authorities in England, DCC has neither the budget nor in reality the remit for genuine local authority-lead regeneration. Under the new stream-lined Councils model that will change, as more powers wil be devolved out of Belfast to each of the Councils - but as the saying goes, Councils in NI currently do little more than 'sweep the streets and bury the dead'. So given that DCC do not have any money to fund this regeneration, as you recommend, what alternative way forward do you suggest ?

Actually, Leisure and Tourism etc is one of the few areas where local Councils in NI do have significant powers and funding. Which is why, for instance, BCC can build a Leisure Centre on the Shankill and another on the Falls, so as to distract these near neighbours from indulging their traditionally-preferred "Leisure Activity" of cutting the tripe out of each other.
http://www.belfastcity.gov.uk/leisur...x.asp?menu=all
It also explains why BCC is at last beginning to take seriously the opportunity of helping build a multi-use stadium for NI, at a reported cost of £75million.
And if Derry City Council really has no money left in its kitty for this purpose, after building (albeit in a half-assed kind of a way) an airport for Ryanair, with generous assistance from over the border, why can't they do likewise for DCFC, who like Ryanair, have a foot in both camps?

And why would a rejhuvenated Brandywell only be a facilioty for the perople of Derry ? We had a Northern Ireland youth game at the stadium earlier this month, as we have done in the past. Why couldn't a rejuvenated Brandywell be a stadium for the whole of the North - regularly hosting other NI games right up to U21/U23 level ? You never know - it might even win the North some new fans for a change.

I didn't actually say it would be "only" for the use of the City, rather "primarily". And of course there would be a benefit for the North West. But DCFC are not the only senior club in the NW. To be quite honest, existing stadia such as Institute and Coleraine could be made suitable for NI youth matches for a hell of a sight less money than DCFC are looking for and there are only so many U-21 games every year. On which point, Mourneview Park - one of the best little club grounds in Ireland - has already established itself as the unofficial "home" of the U-21's. And NI haven't played an U-23 game in ages.

Plus - it's a very dangerous road to go down in Northern Ireland to suggest that funding should only be available centrally for anythign that is percieved as a province-wide re-development, and should be done locally (even thought the funds don't exist..) for everything else. Not only does that ignore the blatant funding bias that happens in Council chambers of all colours around the province - but a very strong arguement could also be made to say that any new home for the NI football team that didn't incorporate other sporting codes would only be of use/appeal to 50%+ of the population. So should not receive any central government funding.

Leaving aside the fact that football in NI invites the interest, participation and support of more than "50%" of the population, I fail to see why/how this need be at all "dangerous". The (Direct-Rule) Government felt able to find the mind-boggling sum of £240m to build a new NI Stadium for three codes at the Maze. Imo, this will be a colossal waste of money (if built).
Far better either to build a multi-use stadium for the whole of NI in Belfast, or if that is unacceptable to all three codes, then allocate a fraction of the £240m (say, half?) to the three codes, for each to determine its own "National" requirements. I can't say what football's share should be, but I have no doubt it wold be adequate either to build a new stadium (ideally), or refurbish Windsor (if need be). Rugby and GAA, neither of whom is esp keen on the Maze (if truth be told), could then spend their share as best they see fit.
The remainder saved could then be used for regional sports and leisure development, why, even in Derry!

This issue is nowhere near as simplistic as you're making it out to be.

The practicalities to be overcome are never "simple". But the Principles are (or should be).

[geysir]

If that wasn't the clear implication of mcDaid's comment, why did he say it? Without this grant aid, there is no reason why a lesser sum could not be adequate to bring the Brandywell up to the level, say, of Solitude or Shamrock Park, or even Mournview, after their current renovations, which are being achieved with considerably less public money than DCFC feel entitled to.

Why should DCFC get NI taxpayers money in order to allow them to "keep up with the Jones's" in the Eircom League? Why should they get ROI taxpayers money to redevelop a club in an area outwith Dublin's jurisdiction?

If they want to compete with the Eircom, they should do so on the same terms as the other Eircom clubs i.e. assistance from one Government, one Association.
Otherwise, if they are to be treated as an NI club, then the same conditions should prevail as are applied to other NI clubs. of course, this latter might mean their having to go part-time. And we couldn't have that, could we?

If Derry can't improve their stadium then there are knock on effects which limit cash flow.
Obviously if Derry have a good stadium they can use it to generate cash to support fulltime football.
The chairman is stating facts, not reasons for gov support.
The reasons for support are given in the submission. Are you aware of the reasons given in Derry's submission?
Shamrock Rovers are being given a ground.
Who cares if Rovers utilise the grounds to its potential, raise enough cash to support fulltime football. No one is going to go to the Dublin Council and complain that it's not the duty of the council to support FT soccer ambitions and give advantage to Rovers.

If Derry can use the ground improvements to their advantage then that is their gain and their opportunity.

[EalingGreen]

If Derry can't improve their stadium then there are knock on effects which limit cash flow.
Obviously if Derry have a good stadium they can use it to generate cash to support fulltime football.
The chairman is stating facts, not reasons for gov support.
If Derry can use the ground improvements to their advantage then that is their gain and their opportunity.

I'm not saying there won't be benefits for DCFC, but every other club in NI or ROI could say exactly the same, given that sort of money.

The reasons for support are given in the submission. Are you aware of the reasons given in Derry's submission?

Yes, I am. I just don't think it justifies that level of funding, from those sources, particularly when duplicated (i.e. two Governments and two Associations), in a way not open to other Irish clubs, North or South.

Shamrock Rovers are being given a ground.
Who cares if Rovers utilise the grounds to its potential, raise enough cash to support fulltime football. No one is going to go to the Dublin Council and complain that it's not the duty of the council to support FT soccer ambitions and give advantage to Rovers.

The Shams support my point, not yours, since if Derry City Council were to fund the Brandywell redevelopment etc, I would be genuinely pleased for them.
Further, if the Dublin Government were also to fund SRFC, would you feel happy if then, for some reason, they joined a league in another jurisdiction?
Again, I could have no objection if DCFC were applying to Stormont, but playing in the IL. Of course, I deplore and regret their reasons for joining the Eircom, and understand their reasons for not wanting to rejoin the IL. But they won't, so they should accept the consequences (imo): they're an "Oirish", not a "Norn Iron" club, so should look to the Government in Dublin, and/or the FAI, and/or their local Council for assistance.

[geysir]

From Ealing Green's opening post on this thread - a direct quote from McDaid.
If Derry are having trouble sustaining first team football by themselves, I don't think cash handouts are the best way to remedy the situation - in fact, I don't think it is a remedy at all.

And, if this is all about the regeneration project, as the Derry fans keep saying, why is McDaid talking about full-time football at all? How is it connected to the regeneration project to create employment and facilities in the Brandywell area?
.

Obviously your opinion will be affected if your style is to go around believing without question an argument based on a selected quote taken in isolation.
That´s not my style. And just because you can't make the connections in DCFC plans does not mean your argument is supported.


For a start who said DCFC are looking for a cash handout?
Where did you get that idea from?
DCFC present a plan for development and are applying for 2/3 funding.
Do you call that a cash handout? I certainly don´t.

The key point is Not Fit For Purpose

It would be a regeneration for the whole of Brandywell which is a seriously derived area," McDaid added.
Derry chairman feels that his club have "a very strong case".
"Although we play in the League of Ireland, we're a team from Northern Ireland.
"We play in the Setanta Cup which is an All-Ireland competition and we represent the city."
The plan is for the Brandywell to be turned into a 8,000 capacity stadium.
"This money would serve a dual purpose. It would provide a stadium for the football club which is long overdue and also provide a new way forward for the people of the Brandywell," added the Derry official.
"It's far too long since we've had a stadium we could be proud of
"It's been run down for years and is not fit for purpose.
"If we don't get it, it's going to cause serious problems as regards full-time football in the city of Derry."

[geysir]

I'm not saying there won't be benefits for DCFC, but every other club in NI or ROI could say exactly the same, given that sort of money.
Yes, I am. I just don't think it justifies that level of funding, from those sources, particularly when duplicated (i.e. two Governments and two Associations), in a way not open to other Irish clubs, North or South

As I said before, it looks like the 66% funding is being split between North and South. DCFC are not getting twice the normal dose of funding for such a project. Derry are applying for a normal 66% funding for such a project but split the burden between 2 Governments.
And probably will have a chance of getting half funding.

The Shams support my point, not yours, since if Derry City Council were to fund the Brandywell redevelopment etc, I would be genuinely pleased for them.

Well if you want to change the context of my Sham Rovers analogy.

If Derry council wanted to fund the Brandywell you would be happy.
But you would not be happy if the Irish government came in and said to Derry Council,"put away 1/2 of that, we will share the burden for you"..

[kingdomkerry]

I'm not saying there won't be benefits for DCFC, but every other club in NI or ROI could say exactly the same, given that sort of money.



Yes, I am. I just don't think it justifies that level of funding, from those sources, particularly when duplicated (i.e. two Governments and two Associations), in a way not open to other Irish clubs, North or South.



The Shams support my point, not yours, since if Derry City Council were to fund the Brandywell redevelopment etc, I would be genuinely pleased for them.
Further, if the Dublin Government were also to fund SRFC, would you feel happy if then, for some reason, they joined a league in another jurisdiction?
Again, I could have no objection if DCFC were applying to Stormont, but playing in the IL. Of course, I deplore and regret their reasons for joining the Eircom, and understand their reasons for not wanting to rejoin the IL. But they won't, so they should accept the consequences (imo): they're an "Oirish", not a "Norn Iron" club, so should look to the Government in Dublin, and/or the FAI, and/or their local Council for assistance.

Why do you constantly refer to the Irish Government as 'the dublin government.

Is it ignorance or are you just trying to **** people off?