O'Neill gives his backing for a United Ireland team

[Gather round]

Don't get you point here? He's obviously refering to the fact that there was no unionist majority on the island of Ireland prior to partition and it was only the manufacture of the 6 county state (which was initially not intended to be a permenant border, see boundry commission etc) that gave the unionist majority in the North 'legitimacy'. As for your point about the broder being redrawn (as was originally agreed would happen on an ongoing basis) down the Foyle, well obviously the nationalist minority would be smaller (you could say the same about South Armagh, Newry etc) but the NI state would also be smaller, I'd happilly take it back peice by piece. You'd end up with a state so small as to be possibly unviable. It's more an arguement for Politics.ie rather then Foot.ie though.....

My point is simply that the supposedly artifical unionist majority in Northern Ireland is no more artificial than their minority within Ireland as a whole. There's no inherent reason why the whole island should be a single political unit, any more than the whole of Iberia or the whole of Scandinavia is.

Unionists want(ed) to be outside the Free State/ Republic; clearly the best way to achieve that was to have a border. Even with unionists being numerous and localised, as I mentioned, you were inevitably going to have thousands unlucky and stranded on the wrong side- but without a border, that number would be much larger.

I can't see the border being redrawn in the foreseeable future, not least because it would set a precedent that future changes were straightforward. But of course they wouldn't be, as you would always have pockets- some very large- who would challenge the change. As for viability, city states are viable, so a smaller NI could be, theoretically.

The argument's on here because people have raised it, and unless and until the mods close the thread there's a likelihood others will answer them.

With what one would presume 50%+ of the population at least who in theory should support the NI football team, I don't get how you are so unambitious with the size of your new stadium (25,000?) that the supporters think they can fill it. When Ulster Rugby played in the HCup final in Lansdowne Road (48K+ capcity), it was filled. Surely if a minority sport like rugby can get 30,000+ to travel to Dublin, NI football should be able to attract a lot more. Its only a couple of games a year.

I should mention here that the Tyrone & Armagh gaelic teams don't have a problem filling Croke Park when they get there.

So, with a population of 1m+ (potential market), how come you are not more ambitious with your new stadium?

Janey- Ulster rugby is quite happy with Ravenhill's capacity of 12,000- there isn't regular demand from fans for many more tickets than that. Similarly, I doubt there are plans to improve facilities in Omagh or Armagh for 50,000 regulars. The games you mention are clearly one-off. We think (documented on OWC, and by the Amalg of Supporters' Clubs) that 25,000 is a sensible balance between ambition, realism, cost etc.

I was at the game between you and Wales in MillStad in November last year. The 25,000 crowd was dwarved in a two thirds empty atmosphere.

[Drumcondra 69er]

My point is simply that the supposedly artifical unionist majority in Northern Ireland is no more artificial than their minority within Ireland as a whole. There's no inherent reason why the whole island should be a single political unit, any more than the whole of Iberia or the whole of Scandinavia is.

Unionists want(ed) to be outside the Free State/ Republic; clearly the best way to achieve that was to have a border. Even with unionists being numerous and localised, as I mentioned, you were inevitably going to have thousands unlucky and stranded on the wrong side- but without a border, that number would be much larger.

I can't see the border being redrawn in the foreseeable future, not least because it would set a precedent that future changes were straightforward. But of course they wouldn't be, as you would always have pockets- some very large- who would challenge the change. As for viability, city states are viable, so a smaller NI could be, theoretically.

The argument's on here because people have raised it, and unless and until the mods close the thread there's a likelihood others will answer them.

.

That still doesn't make sense to me, I'm sorry, I'm obviously missing your point.

Out of interest, do you think that the white populations in South Africa and Zimbabwe should have been given an area of those countries to govern following their transitions from their previous status?

My remark about Politics.ie was meant to be tongue in cheek btw.

[janeymac]

Janey- Ulster rugby is quite happy with Ravenhill's capacity of 12,000- there isn't regular demand from fans for many more tickets than that. Similarly, I doubt there are plans to improve facilities in Omagh or Armagh for 50,000 regulars. The games you mention are clearly one-off. We think (documented on OWC, and by the Amalg of Supporters' Clubs) that 25,000 is a sensible balance between ambition, realism, cost etc.

I was at the game between you and Wales in MillStad in November last year. The 25,000 crowd was dwarved in a two thirds empty atmosphere.

Think of HCup as being more the standard of football internationals - you will get more demand for HCup games than you will for League games, particularly in knock-out stages. Ulster Rugby would play their HCup games in the new Stadium. Ulster GAA have an ongoing battle with Croke Park about wanting to hold Ulster games there because capacity isn't big enough in Clones or Casement. One of the reasons why Ulster GAA in the main were objecting to the opening up to Croke Park that they didn't like th e foreign sports getting priority over GAA.

Now, why do you think that NI football cannot attract the same number of supporters as GAA & Rugby?

As for attendance at Millenium Stadium - Football is just not big in Wales, though I bet if they were playing France they might have got a better attendance.

[jmurphyc]

I was at the game between you and Wales in MillStad in November last year. The 25,000 crowd was dwarved in a two thirds empty atmosphere.

That was an away game and considering both teams were out of contention how many did you expect to be at the game? We were hardly going to fill Cardiff by ourselves and I was actually surprised by how many Irish fans turned up to the game.

[Gather round]

That still doesn't make sense to me, I'm sorry, I'm obviously missing your point.

Out of interest, do you think that the white populations in South Africa and Zimbabwe should have been given an area of those countries to govern following their transitions from their previous status?

My remark about Politics.ie was meant to be tongue in cheek btw

Irish nationalists tend (this may not include you, of course) to argue that Ireland is a recognised unit, and should be politically as it is geographically. On this reasoning, the 20% of unionists should simply have accepted Irish independence from Britain in the early 20th.

Two basic flaws- it's contradicted by other examples elsewhere in Europe, and it simply ignores- may not understand- that others disagree.

No, I don't think that about southern Africa, nor accept your loaded question. Ulster unionists have never asked for part of your country to govern, except in the very localised sense of disagreement on where the border should run. Whites in Zimbabwe have never been more than 1% of the population, btw, so they'd have been pretty squeezed in their own canton or whatever.

Sorry for the unionist sense of humour failure

Now, why do you think that NI football cannot attract the same number of supporters as GAA & Rugby?

I've already answered this- for most of their home games, Ulster rugby get about 12,000, ie about the same as NI football.

As for GAA, if they are regularly selling out Casement (30,000?) and Clones (not sure?), I'm genuinely impressed.

As for attendance at Millenium Stadium - Football is just not big in Wales, though I bet if they were playing France they might have got a better attendance

Come on, they got a poor home gate because their team is poor, and a poor away following because your fans were cheesed off after a poor campaign. My point being that Wales- a small country with limited playing pool, comparable to NI- are likely to have long periods where their crowds are more suited to Wrexham or Swansea. If the Welsh Rugby Union hadn't helpfully built the MillStad, the local FA would be quite happy playing at the smaller venues. There'd be occasional sell-outs, but such is the price of success.

That was an away game and considering both teams were out of contention how many did you expect to be at the game? We were hardly going to fill Cardiff by ourselves and I was actually surprised by how many Irish fans turned up to the game

Relax, I'm not having a pop at your fans (or theirs). It was widely seen as a dead rubber by both teams. Just like ours in Austria to finish the previous tournament- 12,000 lost in the Ernst Happel stadium. But when we last went to Cardiff, the ground was full. Start of the tournament, and they'd done well in the previous one.

[EalingGreen]

If ‘One Team In Ireland’ is good enough Jennings, Dougan, Lennon, O’Neill & Best, its good enough for us

Yes, and that "one team" which was good enough for them was the Northern Ireland one. Of course, there is another team in Ireland, as we NI fans are happy to acknowledge - even if that is not always reciprocated by the other lot.

Eg?, you need to get out more.

The above comment of yours followed your initial assertion that you support ROI (and therefore a combined team) in order to be successful and qualify, to which I replied: "Of course the goal of any team is to be as successful as possible. But are you saying that teams should therefore do whatever it takes to gain success?Or that fans should withdraw their support for that team if they are not successful?"
With such a childish comeback, you are only demeaning an already weak case.

Glad to see the ‘good times’ have increased your attendances from 6,000 to 13,000. Glory hunters, ehh.

Actually, the crowds held up remarkably well even during the depressing days of Sammy McIlroy's tenure - almost as an act of defiance! And it was notable that the fans never turned on him when we were being humiliated (e.g. losing at home to Armenia), in contrast to the stick e.g. Steve Staunton got.
And crowds began to recover even before the results did - at least partly because the true fans "reclaimed the terraces" from the boo boys etc and created an infinitely better and more welcoming atmosphere. Of course, the subsequent run of success also helped, but you can hardly turn away e.g. kids who want to see what it's like, or returning old timers who had previously been discouraged as much by crowd misbehaviour as defeats.

No, a few pints and an atmosphere free of sectarian chanting, does me fine.

When were you last at an NI international, if ever? There hasn't been sectarian chanting in years, a fact testified to by e.g. Kenny Archer of the Irish News, when he pointed out after the defeat of England in 2005: "Those who wish to live in the past and apply outdated labels to all Northern Ireland fans are the real bigots"

Now, why do you think that NI football cannot attract the same number of supporters as GAA & Rugby?

Unless you are saying the NI team should be scrapped due to low crowds - in which case the same should apply to a dozen other UEFA Members - what relevance does that have to the question of a combined Ireland team? Indeed, what business is it of yours whether we play our games in front of 100 fans or 100,000?

As for attendance at Millenium Stadium - Football is just not big in Wales,

You don't know what you're talking about. The fact that the National Rugby team attracts huge crowds 4 or 5 times a year - as much a social occasion as anything else - should not be allowed to distort the true picture.
Not only has Football many more registered players than rugby, but on an average weekend it attracts more spectators as well. Compare for example the crowds over the last five years of Cardiff Blues - playing in the top tier of Welsh rugby, inc. Europe with those of Cardiff City, a mediocre team in the second tier of a League outside their own country.
Welsh Rugby never advertises the fact that it is effectively confined to the Valleys and South Wales, unlike Football, whose reach encompasses the entire country.
But your analogy is useful in another way. With the top Welsh football clubs playing in England, the National team perenially unable ever to qualify for anything and crowds in decline, why not combine the Welsh and England football teams?
True, only Ryan Giggs and Neville Southall would have got a place in such a team in recent years; then again, only Jonny Evans would get a place in the combined Ireland team which its proponents advocate. And besides, England and Wales really ARE one country...

[Drumcondra 69er]

Irish nationalists tend (this may not include you, of course) to argue that Ireland is a recognised unit, and should be politically as it is geographically. On this reasoning, the 20% of unionists should simply have accepted Irish independence from Britain in the early 20th.

Two basic flaws- it's contradicted by other examples elsewhere in Europe, and it simply ignores- may not understand- that others disagree.

No, I don't think that about southern Africa, nor accept your loaded question. Ulster unionists have never asked for part of your country to govern, except in the very localised sense of disagreement on where the border should run. Whites in Zimbabwe have never been more than 1% of the population, btw, so they'd have been pretty squeezed in their own canton or whatever.

Sorry for the unionist sense of humour failure

Question wasn't intended as loaded, I think it's a valid comparison to make (lands taken from indigenous people by a planted population although I accpet that what happenined 400 years ago shouldn't be considered when looking for a solution today). And asking for a part of the country to govern is precisely what Ulster unionists asked for prior to partition, whether free or occupied Ireland had never been partitioned prior to the formation of the Nothern state in the 20's. And is precisely what they were given despite there only being a unionist majority in 4 of the 6 counties (Fermanagh and Tyrone beinhg the exceptions as I'm sure you're aware). The NI government of the time's obstruction of the boundry commission which had been set up to re draw what was in fact a provisional border is also well documented despite the official files never having been released.

[EalingGreen]

Question wasn't intended as loaded, I think it's a valid comparison to make (lands taken from indigenous people by a planted population although I accpet that what happenined 400 years ago shouldn't be considered when looking for a solution today). And asking for a part of the country to govern is precisely what Ulster unionists asked for prior to partition, whether free or occupied Ireland had never been partitioned prior to the formation of the Nothern state in the 20's. And is precisely what they were given despite there only being a unionist majority in 4 of the 6 counties (Fermanagh and Tyrone beinhg the exceptions as I'm sure you're aware). The NI government of the time's obstruction of the boundry commission which had been set up to re draw what was in fact a provisional border is also well documented despite the official files never having been released.

No harm, Drumcondra, but will you take this crap somewhere else more appropriate, before you get this thread locked?

And Gather Round, will you stop encouraging him?

Even if it was boring the ass of 99% of the other Members of this forum, this thread was an important one, with interesting debate, before it was dragged seriously off track by a couple of individuals who appear more interested in how sport affects politics in Ireland, rather than the other way round.

[geysir]

Political unity and Football unity are interdependent.
In the event of unity on a political level, it does not mandate a unity on a football level.

Very few Unionists see themselves as having an Irish Identity along with a British identity.
Unionists would be able to continue with their team regardless of partition status.

[shakermaker1982]

Oh dear, I see where this is going.....six + pages of arguments between the usual suspects then thread locked....

I'm outta here!

Note Dr Ogba could see what would happen at the very beginning of the thread.

Both sides of the argument would be better off talking to their monitor because you will not win the other side round.

[Gather round]

lands taken from indigenous people by a planted population

The Shona and Ndebele (two main ethnic groups in modern Zimbabwe, since you mentioned it) aren't indigenous to the area of the present country. They largely migrated into the area in the 19th, like the white Europeans.

And asking for a part of the country to govern is precisely what Ulster unionists asked for prior to partition

No, they asked to remain in the same country as before, ie Britain.

whether free or occupied Ireland had never been partitioned prior to the formation of the Nothern state in the 20s

Arguable. In the 16th century, just before the plantation, Britain controlled much of Ireland, but not Ulster- hence the plan to plant. So, effectively the island was partitioned between the British-ruled area, and the rest. Similarly, in earlier centuries there was the Pale- it partitioned Ireland.

And is precisely what they were given despite there only being a unionist majority in 4 of the 6 counties (Fermanagh and Tyrone beinhg the exceptions as I'm sure you're aware)

Indeed, and it's only two counties now. Hard on Fermanagh nationalists of course, but without a border it would be harder on Antrim unionists (who are ten times more numerous).

[EalingGreen]

Political unity and Football unity are interdependent.
In the event of unity on a political level, it does not mandate a unity on a football level.

Very few Unionists see themselves as having an Irish Identity along with a British identity.
Unionists would be able to continue with their team regardless of partition status.

This thread is debating whether there should be a "United" Ireland football team per se.

Opponents of the idea - chiefly, but not exclusively, NI fans - argue that without political unity first, it cannot ever happen, indeed should not ever happen.
Further, as you correctly allude, even subsequent to any political unity, there is no guarantee that footballing unity must inevitably follow.

Now if the proponents of a "United" team want to discuss the likelihood, or otherwise, of the political unity which must (imo) necessarily preclude any footballing unity, then by all means let them fire away.

It just shouldn't be in this thread, or even this Section.

[Drumcondra 69er]

No harm, Gather Round, but will you take this crap somewhere else more appropriate, before you get this thread locked?

And Drumcondra, will you stop encouraging him?

Fair enough, had mentioned it would have been more appropraite on politics.ie in a previous post myself.

And as I didn't bring politics into this discussion I've corrected your post for you!

[GavinZac]

I think my opinions on this topic are best explained by this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBGIQ7ZuuiU

[Drumcondra 69er]

This thread is debating whether there should be a "United" Ireland football team per se.

Opponents of the idea - chiefly, but not exclusively, NI fans - argue that without political unity first, it cannot ever happen, indeed should not ever happen.
Further, as you correctly allude, even subsequent to any political unity, there is no guarantee that footballing unity must inevitably follow.

Now if the proponents of a "United" team want to discuss the likelihood, or otherwise, of the political unity which must (imo) necessarily preclude any footballing unity, then by all means let them fire away.

It just shouldn't be in this thread, or even this Section.

On topic I actually agree with you here. I'm quite happy for NI to have it's own team as long as we can select players who want to play for us from all 32 counties.

In the inevitable event of eventual reunification (still a long way off mind) then the issue of a united team will have to be brooached but I'm sure that'll be the least both of of our worries at that stage. I'd like to think it would happen but as you say, there are cases such as Hong Kong where it hasn't although that's a tenuous comparison.

[gspain]

Come on, they got a poor home gate because their team is poor, and a poor away following because your fans were cheesed off after a poor campaign. My point being that Wales- a small country with limited playing pool, comparable to NI- are likely to have long periods where their crowds are more suited to Wrexham or Swansea. If the Welsh Rugby Union hadn't helpfully built the MillStad, the local FA would be quite happy playing at the smaller venues. There'd be occasional sell-outs, but such is the price of success.



Relax, I'm not having a pop at your fans (or theirs). It was widely seen as a dead rubber by both teams. Just like ours in Austria to finish the previous tournament- 12,000 lost in the Ernst Happel stadium. But when we last went to Cardiff, the ground was full. Start of the tournament, and they'd done well in the previous one.

Actually we had a decent away support in Cardiff. I think it was approx 5,000. The Welsh fans I was chatting to afterwards were impressed with our support but not with their own. Furthermore we paid over twixce what they paid for our tickets in a scam normally reserved for Cyprus and Eastern Europe.

[paul_oshea]

Janey- Ulster rugby is quite happy with Ravenhill's capacity of 12,000- there isn't regular demand from fans for many more tickets than that. Similarly, I doubt there are plans to improve facilities in Omagh or Armagh for 50,000 regulars. The games you mention are clearly one-off. We think (documented on OWC, and by the Amalg of Supporters' Clubs) that 25,000 is a sensible balance between ambition, realism, cost etc.

I was at the game between you and Wales in MillStad in November last year. The 25,000 crowd was dwarved in a two thirds empty atmosphere.

I think you have missed the boat on this one....

[co. down green]

When were you last at an NI international, if ever? There hasn't been sectarian chanting in years

I watched a bit of the North v Georgia game on tv and didn't realise that thousands of fans still shout ' no surrender' during the playing of the british anthem.

I suppose you can argue that its simply a loyalist chant, and not sectarian, but in the context of a 'supposed' neutral environment, its hard to see it as being anything less than intimidatory, and thus sectarian in its intent.

But anyway, thats enough feeding the trolls. I'm bored to death wading through your posts, enjoy life.

[Gather round]

And Gather Round, will you stop encouraging him?

Sorry boss, guilty as charged. Still, 250+ posts without a lock isn't bad

Very few Unionists see themselves as having an Irish Identity along with a British identity

I'm sure this is wrong. Ian Paisley- sectarian bigot and religious maniac that he is- makes no attempt to deny his Irishness.

Actually we had a decent away support in Cardiff. I think it was approx 5,000

Fair enough, looked less on the day. A couple in the row behind me were asleep/ unconscious throughout, mind...

didn't realise that thousands of fans still shout ' no surrender' during the playing of the british anthem

You're exaggerating. A couple of hundred at most.

But anyway, thats enough feeding the trolls

You're obsessed by these trolls? Anyway, bye. See ye in South Africa, maybe?

[EalingGreen]

I watched a bit of the North v Georgia game on tv and didn't realise that thousands of fans still shout ' no surrender' during the playing of the british anthem.

I suppose you can argue that its simply a loyalist chant, and not sectarian, but in the context of a 'supposed' neutral environment, its hard to see it as being anything less than intimidatory, and thus sectarian in its intent.

But anyway, thats enough feeding the trolls. I'm bored to death wading through your posts, enjoy life.

That small minority who still chant "NS" in an almost Pavlovian way, are by no means representative of the vast bulk of the Green and White Army; neither does this knee-jerk reaction of theirs deter the genuine fans - Protestant and Catholic - from making the atmosphere at WP as good as you'll get anywhere, a fact recognised by impartial observers both within and outwith NI. Indeed, the only people who are "intimidated" at Windsor these days are our opponents - in the nicest possible way!

Besides, if I were to bother searching through this Message Board, it wouldn't take me long to find occasional examples of misbehaviour by ROI fans. ("Today I was ashamed to be Irish", or somesuch?)

It would appear that you don't let that put you off following your team, nor should it, since the culprits there are equally unrepresentative of, and reviled by, the overwhelming majority of true and decent ROI fans.

Sadly, most, if not all, groups of supporters have their minority of ********s amongst their ranks. As such, they are rather like the Human Appendix: a small, vestigial relic of former times, which no longer serves any purpose, but which rumbles from time to time. Ninety nine per cent of the time it is more trouble than it is worth to operate and remove it, unless it threatens to erupt and spill its poison throughout our entire system.

The NI football team is nowhere near that stage, mind; indeed, we are getting further away than ever - as any impartial observer would recognise.

Then again, with your sneering references and "hit and run" sniping on this topic, it is plain for all to see that you are as far from impartiality as your team is from winning the World Cup - with or without the help of "the North"!

P.S. Do you even know what a "Troll" is?