O'Neill gives his backing for a United Ireland team

[youngirish]

NI's start eleven against Georgia was as follows;

Taylor, Baird, Hughes, Craigan, Evans, Gillespie, Johnson, Davis, Elliott, Healy, Lafferty.

Evans would start for us as we are in desperate need of a left full. Otherwise none of the players in that team are a clear improvement on what we already have to suggest that an united Ireland team would perform better on the world stage.

But please highlight where I'm wrong.

With Finnan and A O'Brien's retirement (I personally think Finnan will return) I'd take Baird also as we don't have much else to choose from. Davis and Healy are worth a place on the bench.

[Gather round]

I think you've already approached Baird about playing for RoI.

He declined

[EalingGreen]

You honestly believe that. You honeslty believe there isnt much of a difference between you best 11

Taylor, Craigain, Hughes, McCauley, Evans, Gillespie, Clingan, Davis, Brunt, Healy and Feeney (give or take a couple)

is much the same in quality as

Given, Kelly, Dunne, O'Shea, Kilbane, McGeady, A. Reid, S.Reid, Hunt, Doyle and Keane

Read carefully what I actually posted. I clearly acknowledged that ROI has a significantly stronger squad than NI (a question of numbers, essentially). However, I said that the gap between our respective First XI's is not so wide.

[Oh and btw, amongst the "couple" of NI players I would give or take are George McCartney (one of the better LB's in the EPL) and Damien Johnson (approaching 300 EPL/International appearances, and Stephen Kelly's Club Captain). Or maybe even Kyle Lafferty, who at 20 already has an identical scoring record to that of Kevin Doyle (5 in 16 caps)]

Do me a bloody favour. Take off the tinted glasses. Yes you have been going through a good phase, but with the level of players of your disposal it will not last. Yes you are ahead of us for a number of months in the FIFA rankings....big whoop. We have been at our lowest level since the beginning of McCarthys days recently( and even they were arguably better). I you gave that list above of the Northern Irish XI and the Irish XI to anybody in Europe im fairly sure over 95% would agree on which one had the more 'quality' as you put it.

If I am wearing tinted glasses - and let's face it, most fans are partial - then I may not be the only one. The FIFA rankings are worked out over a rolling four year period. NI are ahead for the recent "number of months" after having first caught up through consistently outperforming ROI over the past three years. During that period we have gained competitive victories over ranking sides England, Spain, Sweden and Denmark. When did ROI last achieve a comparable result? Why are ROI at their lowest level since early McCarthy? Might not the two be linked?

I you gave that list above of the Northern Irish XI and the Irish XI to anybody in Europe im fairly sure over 95% would agree on which one had the more 'quality' as you put it.

Never mind "anybody". Try giving the Lists to Luis Aragones, Morton Olsen or Lars Lagerbeck. Then try Angelos Anastasiadis or Giampaolo Mazza...

[youngirish]

Thread boring you?

It's about what people raise in the thread, surely? I was merely answering Carloz's points.

Of course broadly I agree with you- we are two clearly third-rate international teams and the enthusiasts for union are either deluding themselves, or more likely on a wind-up as I said.

I said we had the better team. In the short-term, since 2006, this is self-evident.

I would argue that we have the potential to be second rate if we really go for it. So there.

If I am wearing tinted glasses - and let's face it, most fans are partial - then I may not be the only one. The FIFA rankings are worked out over a rolling four year period. NI are ahead for the recent "number of months" after having first caught up through consistently outperforming ROI over the past three years.

EG you definitely are wearing Rose coloured glasses. You consistently out performed us for possibly 6 months in those three years. Where did you finish in your last WC qualification campaign? THe correct answer is nowhere.
Didn't Wales hammer you not too long ago yes that same Wales we took 4 points off in our last qualification? Consistently outperformed us for 3 years? Ha ha.

Never mind "anybody". Try giving the Lists to Luis Aragones, Morton Olsen or Lars Lagerbeck. Then try Angelos Anastasiadis or Giampaolo Mazza...

What's the Iceland and Latvian manager's name again?

[ifk101]

With Finnan and A O'Brien's retirement (I personally think Finnan will return) I'd take Baird also as we don't have much else to choose from. Davis and Healy are worth a place on the bench.

I think that's a fair assessment. There are some players that can add to our squad but there aren't players in the NI squad that are clearly better than what we already have. Going back to the article and O'Neill's suggestion, there currently doesn't exist any sporting justification for unifying the two sides. Maybe this existed in the past but it doesn't exist at this moment in time. Joining force wouldn't make a "super-side".

Morton Olsen or Lars Lagerbeck.

You should look up our recent results against these sides.

[Gather round]

You should look up our recent results against these sides

If you're going to boast about friendlies, why not mention your regular draws with Brazil?

Your best win in a competitive game in the last six years was against Georgia.

[ifk101]

If you're going to boast about friendlies, why not mention your regular draws with Brazil?

I'm not boosting about anything. EG thought it fit that we should ask Martin Olsen and Lars Lagerbäck about how good NI is and I'm just pointing out that neither Denmark or Sweden have fond memories of playing against us. Frankly, I know how good both Denmark and Sweden are - and results against them are nothing to highlight.

Your best win in a competitive game in the last six years was against Georgia.

If you mean away from home you're probably correct. BTW who have NI beaten away from home within recent memory???

[EalingGreen]

NI's start eleven against Georgia was as follows;

Taylor, Baird, Hughes, Craigan, Evans, Gillespie, Johnson, Davis, Elliott, Healy, Lafferty.

Evans would start for us as we are in desperate need of a left full. Otherwise none of the players in that team are a clear improvement on what we already have to suggest that an united Ireland team would perform better on the world stage.

But please highlight where I'm wrong.

You're "wrong" in considering that football is played on paper, rather than grass! On paper, Schevchenko is a "better" player than e.g. Drogba. But on grass Drogba is incomparably better.

You may also be wrong in confusing club form with international form. For example, Robbie Keane is an incomparably better all round player than David Healy in every respect (bar, perhaps, pure finishing). But in 79 appearances during 10 years when ROI have mostly been the stronger side, Keane has scored 32 goals i.e. 1 every 2.47 games. Whereas, Healy has scored 34 in 64 i.e. 1 every 1.88 games.
I'm still not claiming you should pick Healy ahead of Keane, but if you don't think his presence on the bench would be a significant boost to any combined team, then you're blind. And if ever Keane were absent, in a straight choice between Healy and Kevin Doyle, it's "no contest".

P.S. On a technical point, Evans was only LB because George McCartney of West Ham pulled out on the morning of the game. In any combined team, McCartney would have to play LB, leaving either Evans or Hughes to partner (the outstanding) Richard Dunne at Centre Back.

[Gather round]

If you mean away from home you're probably correct. BTW who have NI beaten away from home within recent memory???

I meant overall. Your home wins in the last three competitions have been against Slovakia, Cyprus, Wales, Georgia, Faeroes and San Marino.

We beat Finland last season in a friendly but yes, our away form in qualifiers is pretty bad. Just like yours.

[ifk101]

You're "wrong" in considering that football is played on paper, rather than grass! On paper, Schevchenko is a "better" player than e.g. Drogba. But on grass Drogba is incomparably better.

You may also be wrong in confusing club form with international form. For example, Robbie Keane is an incomparably better all round player than David Healy in every respect (bar, perhaps, pure finishing). But in 79 appearances during 10 years when ROI have mostly been the stronger side, Keane has scored 32 goals i.e. 1 every 2.47 games. Whereas, Healy has scored 34 in 64 i.e. 1 every 1.88 games.
I'm still not claiming you should pick Healy ahead of Keane, but if you don't think his presence on the bench would be a significant boost to any combined team, then you're blind. And if ever Keane were absent, in a straight choice between Healy and Kevin Doyle, it's "no contest".

But as you have pointed out in the past, Sanchez got the best out of Healy because he played a target man beside him - Quinn or Lafferty. Likewise Keane is a "better player" playing off a target man - something that hasn't happened in an Irish shirt over the last few years.

I think Healy is secure in the fact that there's nobody that going to replace him in the NI team. It's the classic big fish in the small pond syndrome. There would be a lot more competition in an United Ireland team, and judging by Healy club problems, I think this extra competition would negatively impact on Healy. He is dependent on playing off a target man so it's not the case of Healy is better than Doyle, his position in the team would be dependent on what other players are also picked.

[EalingGreen]

With Finnan and A O'Brien's retirement (I personally think Finnan will return) I'd take Baird also as we don't have much else to choose from. Davis and Healy are worth a place on the bench.

Baird has actually been very poor for NI over the last 18 months, struggling mostly at Right Back.

His natural position is Centre Back, where he was truly excellent for Southampton last season (Players and Fans POTY). However, for NI, our Captain Aaron Hughes is a fixture and I now believe Jonny Evans should be CB alongside him.

As regards RB, before a serious injury put him out for the last 6 months, Michael Duff was playing very well for NI. On which form, he would deserve a place ahead of (the error-prone) Stephen Kelly imo. (Obviously Finnan would have been a shoo-in had he not retired)

As for Davis, I agree his form suffered recently for both club and country. But the Steven Davis of two years ago at Villa, or the last three months at Rangers, would regularly get a start, esp when you consider how injury-prone the two Reids are, or how bonkers Stephen Ireland is.

[Gather round]

I think Healy is secure in the fact that there's nobody that going to replace him in the NI team. There would be a lot more competition in an United Ireland team, and judging by Healy club problems, I think this extra competition would negatively impact on Healy. He is dependent on playing off a target man

Plenty thought Healy should be dropped when we and he went two years and 14 games without a goal. And the greater competition thing can be overstated- Kevin Kilbane has well over 50 caps despite being constantly derided by a large proportion of your fans. Saying he's dependent is a bit odd- we play to our strengths, he scores plenty of goals. You seemingly don't, and underachieve.

[EalingGreen]

Frankly, I know how good both Denmark and Sweden are - and results against them are nothing to highlight.

Somewhat disingenuous, since you also know the difference between Sweden (esp) and Denmarks friendly results (ROI) when compared with their competitive results (NI).

[ifk101]

Somewhat disingenuous, since you also know the difference between Sweden (esp) and Denmarks friendly results (ROI) when compared with their competitive results (NI).

Sweden friendly record is poor - for a variety of reasons. But the side they put out against us was the planned starting eleven for their World Cup opening match against Trinidad. That game was the dress rehearsal. But I'm sure I've told you this before.

[paul_oshea]

Somewhat disingenuous, since you also know the difference between Sweden (esp) and Denmarks friendly results (ROI) when compared with their competitive results (NI).

I think that was his point i.e. nothing to highlight.

I'd have to agree healys finishing is far better than keanes though. Per game for NI though, how many goals to shots on target does he score, and can anyone point out the same stat for keane. Keane tends to miss quite a few before a goal, whereas I have a feeling healy doesn't miss so many before he scores therefore adding to the fact he is a better finisher.

[EalingGreen]

But as you have pointed out in the past, Sanchez got the best out of Healy because he played a target man beside him - Quinn or Lafferty. Likewise Keane is a "better player" playing off a target man - something that hasn't happened in an Irish shirt over the last few years.

Then in any combined team, the obvious thing would be to pick Lafferty alongside Keane, since ROI don't really have a player of the Target Man/Lafferty type.

(Although Alan Lee at Ipswich may fit the bill? If so, it may not be coincidence that Jim Magilton would love to buy Healy, if he could afford him)

I think Healy is secure in the fact that there's nobody that going to replace him in the NI team. It's the classic big fish in the small pond syndrome. There would be a lot more competition in an United Ireland team, and judging by Healy club problems, I think this extra competition would negatively impact on Healy. He is dependent on playing off a target man so it's not the case of Healy is better than Doyle, his position in the team would be dependent on what other players are also picked.

If you pick Healy and create chances for him, he will score. I freely acknowledge that Keane is much the better player than Healy and Doyle is more accomplished than Lafferty (though they're such different types it's hard to compare).
But since Lafferty made his NI debut, he and Healy have consistently played better and scored far more goals than Keane and Doyle.
It's the old dilemma of pedigree over performance. I understand perfectly why ROI fans look to the former and NI fans to the latter.
What would Jack Charlton have done, I wonder? Perhaps Liam Brady or David O'Leary could tell us....

[Gather round]

Brady is too busy sulking after the other pundits ridiculed his boss Wenger on RTE last night

There's a YT video for those who missed it.

[youngirish]

If you pick Healy and create chances for him, he will score. I freely acknowledge that Keane is much the better player than Healy and Doyle is more accomplished than Lafferty (though they're such different types it's hard to compare).

Come off it EG. Anyone bar NI fans would consider Doyle to be a better player than Healy and a far better player than Lafferty (wasn't he Championship player of the season at a similar age to the age Lafferty is now).

[ifk101]

The thing is we don't know how good the Keane/Doyle partnership is because that partnership has yet to be coached. And further to that we don't know if Keane/Doyle is our best partnership. 10 or so strikers have been called up for this squad get together in Portugal possibly because of this.

[Gather round]

Isn't Doyle's record this season (five Prem goals for Reading) pretty ordinary? Barely better than Healy's four. He hardly stands out.

IFK- come off it, we realise Steve Staunton was a poor manager but you're not seriously suggesting they got NO coaching?

Doyle was still in Ireland when the age Lafferty is now.