The Future!

[Dricky]

I think the issue of people coming together with a common goal for the betterment of mankind is very tough to achieve, the reason, well humans in a society need to be able to look at other societies and say 'you are wrong we are right.' That issue is more prevalent in the era of globalisation then it was in the early half of last century even though there were two world wars.

Kingdom Hoop, The issue with getting companies actively working in common with state interests and the populace is that lobby groups are a part of life in a democracy. State interest is not always the best way forward, history is littered with examples of 'the state' saying it is for the betterment of the people when in fact it is power that drives the state and not the good of the people.

There a few things that can polarize people and get people together for their cause, natural disasters being one, war being another.

Both make the society affected take stock and realise that their way of life is under threat and either they take an active part in securing their society in their own little patch or they reach a point of Zen and accept what is coming (be it through their own wants or it is forced upon them).

Socialism, Marxism, Capitalism and what ever else is there to control humans all have the same flays, control/power & humans, you need power to control society and power is abused by all of the above ideals. All also have positives as well but inevitably all have a trade off against human rights in each society


I must say I'm enjoying this topic.

[BohsPartisan]

You are saying I am wrong on bartering but you have not looked at the process of bartering.

There was no universal price list, and no set bartering rules your view on bartering is simplified and as a result it is not accurate.

Unless you exchange like for like then it is not the same, if they are the same you are just swapping.

The more animal pelts that were available the more pelts you would get in exchange for another required good. Therefore there were fluctuations in quantities of exchange this can be further backed up with seasonal products fresh meat was worth more than salted meat.

The more of something that was available the less you needed to exchange, the better the quality of your product the more you got in return

This was even before the coin was introduced!!

"Capitalism promotes unbridled individualism"

Yes that is true but it is not just individuals, it also promotes companies, it allows groups and individuals set prices and set margins.

I know co-ops aren't capitalist ventures but a lot now abide by the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market which is primarily a capitalist ideal.

You say
"Human beings are social animals. That’s human nature folks. This is proven time and time again as people organise themselves into groups. Nations, communities, parishes, football clubs, unions etc, etc"

Capitalist also organise themselves into like minded or complementary groups. The assumption that all capitalist are individuals is wrong.

That is where the flaw in your argument is you think capitalist are purely individuals, that is not the case 100% of the time.

On Bartering - in primitive communist societies and early agricultural societies that have been observed by anthropologists first hand, the idea of bartering between groups was exchange of a "product" you had a surplus of for something the other group had a surplus of. It is far removed from the concept of profit.

On capitalism and individualism - I said it promotes individualism- that is its ideology. Of course in reality there has to be some level of co-operation involved or else nothing would get done.

Also Dricky I'd suggest you have a look at this thread first and see if there is anything that has been missed.
http://foot.ie/showthread.php?t=4415...ight=Socialism
I'm reluctant to go over old ground now. If you are skimming through the main points in favour of Socialism are made by myself, Dr Nightdub and Son of Stan.

[Dricky]

On Bartering - in primitive communist societies and early agricultural societies that have been observed by anthropologists first hand, the idea of bartering between groups was exchange of a "product" you had a surplus of for something the other group had a surplus of. It is far removed from the concept of profit.

On capitalism and individualism - I said it promotes individualism- that is its ideology. Of course in reality there has to be some level of co-operation involved or else nothing would get done.

Also Dricky I'd suggest you have a look at this thread first and see if there is anything that has been missed.
http://foot.ie/showthread.php?t=4415...ight=Socialism
I'm reluctant to go over old ground now. If you are skimming through the main points in favour of Socialism are made by myself, Dr Nightdub and Son of Stan.

I’m not disputing the virtues of socialism, a Marxist would say it is the stage to follow capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterised by the implementation of collectivist principles.

I'm not prompting capitalism as the saviour of mankind but there is a fundamental flay in human nature which prevents ideals based on community, socialism etc, that flay is hierarchy. People wanting to better their lot is a fair assumption but as long as you have groups of people there will always be bosses and bosses get/want more than the ranks below. Flat structures don’t exist in Socialism or capitalism, if they did then I agree things would be easier fairer and more productive and capitalism would never exist. Humans were introduced to capitalism through trade, trade began with bartering.

in primitive communist societies and early agricultural societies that have been observed by anthropologists first hand, the idea of bartering between groups was exchange of a "product" you had a surplus of for something the other group had a surplus of. It is far removed from the concept of profit.

I do not disagree with this at all , people used dance & song as a currency in bartering (which is still a form of currency between some tribes in Africa) but that is not the full life of bartering, it did not have set rules outside each community and bartering developed as societies developed, the same recording of history show that a produce (be it a crop, animal pelts etc) came to have a higher premium if a product was in short supply or dropped in value if over supplied (which was a result of communities developing and starting production on a greater scale).

Another thing developed with communities, Members of communities started to travel and explore and it was then they discovered that if they traded Product A for their desired product B that there could receive more of product B then they needed but the adventurous community member knew that the excess they had could be traded at a much higher premium where product B was in short supply. This is where your simplified version of bartering developed into trade and it is the beginning of profit.

When coins were introduced they became the medium of exchange, profit became quantifiable. The hierarchy of the communities received the wealth be it food or later coins or jewellery it did not filter down to the sod on the ground. The first son was feed better then the rest of the clan (after the leader of course) in these communities it was not distributed evenly amongst all. This was the beginning capitalism.

The issue in getting socialism to succeed is that we have to deconstruct human nature and take out Capitalism before socialism would have a chance of working 100% of the time for 100% of the people, capitalism only came about because of communities and the hierarchy in human society, that same flaw is in socialism.

Socialist would say they can introduce it now and society would be a better place but how? You have to control the masses and in order to do that you need to control information, the control of information is a strong tool and should any group in power have such controls? Personally I think not, as it will lead to ‘do as I say’ (which is the exact same as capitalism)

Natural resources are a huge tool socialist can use and it is only where there are massive saleable resources do we see success stories in socialism. The unfortunate thing is we also of many many countries where socialism has been based on Marxism and Leninism ideas and these are just as bad as capitalist countries when abused, wealth is not distributed through communities and they are dependant on the state for work and can never get out of that cycle. Do these countires divide the land amongst all?? Certainly not, are you considered a loyal servant of the mother land if you dispute the view of the hierarchy, defiantly not and this can have a detrimental affect on a person and family, which goes against one of the key priciapls of socialism.

[strangeirish]

Ozone created by electric cars now killing millions in the seventh largest country in the world, Mexifornia, formly known as California. White minorities still trying to have English recognized as Mexifornia's third language.
Spotted Owl plague threatens northwestern United States crops and livestock.
Baby conceived naturally. Scientists stumped.
Couple petitions court to reinstate heterosexual marriage.

Iran still closed off; physicists estimate it will take at least 10 more years before radioactivity decreases to safe levels.
France pleads for global help after being taken over by Jamaica.
Castro finally dies at age 112; Cuban cigars can now be imported legally, but President Chelsea Clinton has banned all smoking.
George Z. Bush says he will run for President in 2036.
Postal Service raises price of first class stamp to $17.89 and reduces mail delivery to Wednesdays only.
85-year $75.8 billion study: Diet and Exercise is the key to weight loss.
Average weight of Americans drops to 250 lbs.
Japanese scientists have created a camera with such a fast shutter speed, they now can photograph a woman with her mouth shut.
Massachusetts executes last remaining conservative.
Supreme Court rules punishment of criminals, violates their civil rights.
Average height of NBA players is now nine feet, seven inches.
New federal law requires that all nail clippers, screwdrivers, fly swatters and rolled-up newspapers must be registered by January 2036.
Congress authorizes direct deposit of formerly illegal political contributions to campaign accounts.
IRS sets lowest tax rate at 75 percent.
Florida voters still having trouble with voting machines.

[pete]

I think Cloning could be a huge issue with scientists playing Flying Spaghetti Strawmen