Maze stadium plan 'will proceed'

[Graemerz]

Steve the thought of Linfield moving from South Belfast would disappoint me greatly. Ideally Windsor could be rennovated to suit us IF the IFA decide to go down the route of buying out of the contract. Raised stands similar in style to the new stand at Mourneview at both ends and the railway end would suffice, while keeping the Kop the way it is. I'd also do extensive work on Midgely so that it can be used for training all year round.. Maybe we could sell it off to Olympia Leisure Centre and as part of the deal Linfield could use their sports facilities at no cost? Possibilities although I think the IFA will not be leaving Windsor anytime in the near future.

[Steve Bruce]

Steve the thought of Linfield moving from South Belfast would disappoint me greatly. Ideally Windsor could be rennovated to suit us IF the IFA decide to go down the route of buying out of the contract. Raised stands similar in style to the new stand at Mourneview at both ends and the railway end would suffice, while keeping the Kop the way it is. I'd also do extensive work on Midgely so that it can be used for training all year round.. Maybe we could sell it off to Olympia Leisure Centre and as part of the deal Linfield could use their sports facilities at no cost? Possibilities although I think the IFA will not be leaving Windsor anytime in the near future.

I don't think it is feasible to upgrade Windsor and keep us afloat financially.

It would be a very sad day when we leave Windsor, but unfortunately we have to move with the times. Liverpool, Everton, Arsenal, Sunderland, Middlesbrough, Southampton etc etc have either got a new stadium or getting a new stadium.

It isn't because we want to leave, it is because of neccesity

I'm sure their are other parts of South Belfast that Linfield can be situated but to be honest, if we leave Windsor, As long as we stay in Belfast, I will be happy. Linfields routes are Sandy Row area but unfortunately Sandy Rows population and support to Linfield has declined massively and it is within Linfields interest to look elsewhere eg Newtownabbey.

[Graemerz]

I don't think it is feasible to upgrade Windsor and keep us afloat financially.

It would be a very sad day when we leave Windsor, but unfortunately we have to move with the times. Liverpool, Everton, Arsenal, Sunderland, Middlesbrough, Southampton etc etc have either got a new stadium or getting a new stadium.

It isn't because we want to leave, it is because of neccesity

I'm sure their are other parts of South Belfast that Linfield can be situated but to be honest, if we leave Windsor, As long as we stay in Belfast, I will be happy. Linfields routes are Sandy Row area but unfortunately Sandy Rows population and support to Linfield has declined massively and it is within Linfields interest to look elsewhere eg Newtownabbey.

English clubs are somewhat different because their football has changed dramatically in recent years, no longer is it seen as a "working class" game, it has become "middle-class". I would be surprised if people that went to support the likes of Arsenal and Chelsea 20 years ago can still afford to go today. Their is no soul in their football anymore, therefore they can just go to pastures new, it doesn't make a hint of difference. They'll still have people flocking into their stadiums because of their star status.

Locally though its still very much a working class sport, I feel if Linfield moved out of South Belfast they may lose support... Same can be said to the Glens if they moved out of the East and the International team, if they played outside Belfast but thats no concern of mine.

[gspain]

I think it is perception ratehr than reality these days that makes people think Windsor is unsafe. Certainly the walk through the Village was daunting the 80's and 90's but there are lots of fancy new apartments there now (I assume at fancy prices).

There is still of course the perception and a totally new stadium would help that. however it is difficult in Belfast to get a totally neutral site. I don't know where the proposed George Best Stadium is going to be but East Belfast is hardly neutral either.

Still a ground within walking distance of pubs, retaurants and public transport has got to be better than an out of town white elephant.

[BleusAvantTout]

Also this Windsor Park not in a good location lets get a few things straight here.

Windsor is situated in the Village area of South Belfast. BUT their is an entrance from the Boucher road right down to the ground. So this makes it safe for every tom dick or harry to come down, no matter what persuasion they are from.

And also for Windsor not being safe for the Green side, why have Cliftonville agreed to use Windsor for Europe? Because it is up to standard and it is safe for their supporters to get in and out of the ground.

Why did ST Marys GAA camogie team use Windsor Parks facilities to train? Because Windsor Park had great facilities and Linfield are kind enough to let them use our facilities at no expense of the camogie club. The Camogie club never had 1 pick of bother from the big bad unionists that live around the ground.

Windsor Park is so unsafe that through-out the troubles Cliftonville had to play their home games against Linfield at Windsor, because Windsor was safe and Solitude wasn't.

Would you like me to give you more examples why what you said was pure tripe?

Well said, ..................I couldn't have put it better myself!!

[geysir]

So I missed the fact that Drumshanbo GAA club renamed its ground after a former player than an IRA man. I wish a few others would follow suit. you still continue to ignore my other points. Given that you were quick to pounce when I didn't realsie one club had ceased to promote terrorism I trust then the others are still correct.

Others? what others? You have yet to name one other. Already you made 2 wrong calls on that issue. Once you start stumbling over factual accuracy to support accusations, IMO credibility suffers and serious doubts are raised about your interpretation of other facts or so called facts. In other words your interpretations would automatically come in for a degree of scepticism because of proven low standard of research and an easy willingness to accept unsubstantiated facts. These things matter to me.
Yes the Drumbshambo club use to be named after Capt Vaugh, died 76 years ago. Hardly a shrine to terrorism. The name has been changed after a local lad with some (not a lot) GAA prowess who died tragically in the US as well as a competition named after him. IMO that reflects the strong connection between the community and the club and the sense of tragedy. The competition is not on the GAA calender but is organized locally like hundreds or thousands of other competitions.

Two simple questions remain ignored

1) Can you please explain where the GAA official guide excludes it from honouring the IRA?

This is a nonsense Q.
The GAA has no reference at all to honouring the IRA in the official guide. There is no reference at all to armed struggle.

But to give you some help with your fruitless search for other clubs named after IRA men in the last 80 years. I'll give you a clue, there is a club named after a lad called Fergal.

2) Do you see anything wrong with honouring dead IRA men and women (mustn't forget the Mairead Farrell tournament) and in particular do you see anything wrong with using children to do so as many of these involve underage GAA?

I don't see things these days as a right or wrong issue. It's long since I had that frame of mind. In fact so much crap is started by people who think they are right and all justified by being right and blinded by their self- rightuosness.
Many people saw and still see the hunger strikers as a human rights issue, or a political rights issue or a prison torture issue or a determined attempt to crush prisoners. That's their interpretation of those times. I certainly know loads of people who have total respect for the hunger strikers and have no truck at all with violent methods.
That issue was brought to the floor of GAA congress by the Ulster delegates in 1980 or therabouts, Congress side-stepped the division, instead passed the ambigious motion to support the struggle for Independance. I'd imagine as I have stated before that the hunger striker thing is reflective of the local members and probably there is widespread sympathy for the hunger strikers amongst those old enough in the GAA.
There is nothing about the struggle bit in the GAA official guide so personally and everybody I know, think the struggle bit means absolutly feck all. Like a Fianna Fail promise.
I tend to be be cynical about military trappings being used since the GFA. I think there should be a complete lack of celebration of the military side of things. Put a pause on it and look at it again in 10 or 20 years time. Again part of it comes from, we were right to cause the hurt therefore we see no wrong and because we were right no need to be apologetic in any shape or form.

I don't know much about Maread Farrell, I remember the striking pictures of her on lamp posts all over the country, she led the Armagh women in a hunger strike and was famously shot dead in Gibraltar. I'd assume she was regarded with good reason to be a soldier or a military target and therefore shot on sight. Maybe she played Camogie. I'd suspect that the competition if that's what it was, was a Camogie thing. Why should I have any judgement about her?

I don't know about these under age tournaments and a possible negative impact you may infer. I probably played in about 50 or 60 tournaments as a kid and hadn't a clue what they were called or who they were named after.
Maybe you are also alluding to Cumann Fuisoige, set up by a group of gaelic speaking ex-prisoners to help other ex-prisoners with thir issues and who also set up the GAA club and were criticized by the DUP etc for having the crest of the skylark and identifying with Bobby Sands.
So far I have your assumtion that the Cumann is having a negative effect on children as they have also organized tournaments for children.
That's not enough for me, I would have to see evidence that they are having a negative effect on the kids, not just your assumption that this is so. On the other hand, AFAIK, David Irvine was very enthousiastic in his support for them and after a thorough review they received £ tens of thousands of funding from HM Gov.
What ever works in a positive way to get kids off the streets sounds allright. I would hardly imagine that the kids are being drilled in methods of petrol bomb making or 100 ways on how to hate a prod, I don't know but I doubt it.
I would have to see evidence of negative impact not somebodies assumption that it is negative.
In matters like this I usually reserve my ire for communal politicans who do know better but they choose to ferment division, bigotry and intolerance for their own personal political gain.
For children to grow away out of the imposed prejudices, I don't know what effective solutions would be. Banish religion from school management sounds a good start, bussing or integration with enducements. I have not examined that issue at all properly.

[whitewell red]

why should the government give a penny 2 linfield so windsor pk can b upgraded is that not the responsibility off linfield alone.
when was the last time linfield put there hands in to there own pockets to do some work on windsor pk (the property of linfield fc). the ifa is only after spending god knows how much on fixing the roof in the north stand
PS. i believe that all the n.ireland fans that don't want the new stadium to go ahead r all linfield men

I'll post what I have posted on ILF

"Right I've read this thread and listened, half heartedly, to the National Stadium debate. My understanding is that the government will release £160 million for the Maze stadium.


The Marketing Director, Windsor Roar, has a profitable solution for Northern Ireland. Give £20 million to Linfield to upgrade Windsor; £20 million to the GAA to improve Casement; and £20 million to Ulster rugby for Ravenhill.


That leaves £100 million surplus for health, education, roads, environment or whatever! Everybodys happy .....................................except Edwin Comelately!!!


My proposals are not "rocket science" but you all know it makes sense! "

[whitewell red]

As the BBCs report today says, they had a Commercial contract professional look at the Linfield contract and it states that the IFA have to keep the ground up to their requirements. Not Linfield. So that's why.

Also this Windsor Park not in a good location lets get a few things straight here.

Windsor is situated in the Village area of South Belfast. BUT their is an entrance from the Boucher road right down to the ground. So this makes it safe for every tom dick or harry to come down, no matter what persuasion they are from.

And also for Windsor not being safe for the Green side, why have Cliftonville agreed to use Windsor for Europe? Because it is up to standard and it is safe for their supporters to get in and out of the ground.

Why did ST Marys GAA camogie team use Windsor Parks facilities to train? Because Windsor Park had great facilities and Linfield are kind enough to let them use our facilities at no expense of the camogie club. The Camogie club never had 1 pick of bother from the big bad unionists that live around the ground.

Windsor Park is so unsafe that through-out the troubles Cliftonville had to play their home games against Linfield at Windsor, because Windsor was safe and Solitude wasn't.

Would you like me to give you more examples why what you said was pure tripe?

it's not the ifa who says windsor is not safe it's uefa. do u really think uefa will care with what u just said about it being safe 4 the green side. that's not there concern they r concerned about poeple from around the world sitting in a wooden hut u call the south stand

[SolitudeRed]

Yes I was wondering about this tenancy agreement between Linfield and the IFA it seems very strange indeed!! Is it not convention that the landlord is responisble for paying for the upkeep of the property? but if I remember correctly recently Belfast city council had to pay for repairs to the roof of one of the stands at windsor

As for the area its in well when I was last there we were advised to take a detour to avoid the village area!! also if my memory serves me correctly one of those paddywagon tour buses was attacked in the windsor park/Lisburn road area after a Northern Ireland game recently so I wouldn't say that it is entirely risk free!

[geysir]

also if my memory serves me correctly one of those paddywagon tour buses was attacked in the windsor park/Lisburn road area after a Northern Ireland game recently so I wouldn't say that it is entirely risk free!

I wasn't entirely convinced by that report and any supposed connection to Windsor PK, can't remember why.

[gspain]

Others? what others? You have yet to name one other. Already you made 2 wrong calls on that issue. Once you start stumbling over factual accuracy to support accusations, IMO credibility suffers and serious doubts are raised about your interpretation of other facts or so called facts. In other words your interpretations would automatically come in for a degree of scepticism because of proven low standard of research and an easy willingness to accept unsubstantiated facts. These things matter to me.

But to give you some help with your fruitless search for other clubs named after IRA men in the last 80 years. I'll give you a clue, there is a club named after a lad called Fergal.

That issue was brought to the floor of GAA congress by the Ulster delegates in 1980 or therabouts, Congress side-stepped the division, instead passed the ambigious motion to support the struggle for Independance. I'd imagine as I have stated before that the hunger striker thing is reflective of the local members and probably there is widespread sympathy for the hunger strikers amongst those old enough in the GAA.

There is nothing about the struggle bit in the GAA official guide so personally and everybody I know, think the struggle bit means absolutly feck all. Like a Fianna Fail promise.
.

So because I failed to pick up on the fact that a ground was renamed makes the other facts which you choose to ignore in doubt. I've actually provided references in most cases anyway. Happy to provide any others you still doubt. It makes a pretty damning case to me but then maybe because I missed the fact that Drumshanbo renamed their ground it's OK then and there is no evidence to suggest the GAA continue to promote and glorify terrorism.

The motion supporting the "Struggle forn national liberation" was passed on March 26th 1979. It was proposed by Clare (not Ulster GAA). It was the 4th of relevant motions - 2 supporting IRA prisoners in the Maze and 1 calling for the British Army to withdraw from Northern Ireland. All 4 passed without dissent. There was no sidestepping the issue as you claim. In 1980 an attempt was made to waterdown support for "the struggle" by amending this to the "unarmed struggle". This was overwhelmingly defeated. I understand that motions were again passed in 1980 in support of the IRA prisoners but I've no record of these. The reason I asked about the official guide is that you tried to refute these facts by quoting from the official guide saying the "GAA is non sectarian" This would in my view contradict "support for the struggle for national liberation2 which I interpret to be the IRA campaign but I suspect this is justified by claiming the IRA are also non sectarian. I'm not aware of any attempts subsequently to overturn this.

I wasn't aware which club is called after Fergal - Fergal who. Is it Fergal O'Hanlon's in Monaghan?

[Graemerz]

Report slams Windsor Park safety

A damning report on the state of Northern Ireland's international football venue Windsor Park is expected to be published in the next month.
The report by stadium designers the Miller Partnership is understood to say it doesn't meet with safety standards and is in a poor state of repair.

In particular there are problems with fire safety at the Belfast ground.

There are also major problems with disability access and maintenance is described as very poor.

It's understood that as a result of information in the draft report a fire tender has been parked beside the South Stand for Northern Ireland's last two international games.

The BBC also understands that the old Railway Stand at the stadium was closed for international games as a result of the report's initial findings.

The IFA's insurers refused to insure the stand after reading the report.

There is also criticism of the moat in front of the North Stand.

A source said: "Most of the report is not complimentary, in fact you would be hard pushed to say any of it is complimentary."

There are also said to be problems with the West Stand, which was only built a few years ago, and the 6,000 capacity North Stand, where part of the roof blew off in the Christmas period.

It is generally thought there are three options for the way forward.

Firstly, repair Windsor Park in the interim while a new stadium is being built.

This would cost between £2 and £5m and is contingent on concrete plans for a new stadium to be built.

Secondly, repair the ground to an acceptable standard for its present capacity of £14,000, replacing the Railway and South Stands for an estimated £20m.

Finally, rebuild the ground to a comfortable but not luxurious standard with a capacity of 25,000 for an estimated £40m.

The 300-page draft report, which was completed earlier this year, was commissioned by Windsor Park's owners Linfield football club but paid for by the Department of Culture Arts and Leisure.

[geysir]

The reason I asked about the official guide is that you tried to refute these facts by quoting from the official guide saying the "GAA is non sectarian" This would in my view contradict "support for the struggle for national liberation2 which I interpret to be the IRA campaign

Lets look at the evidence
A motion passed is a time and place issue and has absolutly no effect on GAA policy and cannot be compared to an article in the GAA constitution the official guide. It might appear to contradict but in terms of power, strength and durability it cannot in any way contradict.
A GAA congress motion passed 27 years is not proof. It says, at that time this group of delegates pass a motion, a statement. You would have to back it up with evidence that the GAA supported the struggle.
Now we look at your evidence that the GAA was serious about that 1980 motion
One club name, a few unofficial GAA tournments a loughhall celebration of an IRA member Even if I concede all that 100% without any objection
IMO its still nothing of substance that would suggest the GAA supports sectarianism. I say that because that evidence you present might reflect .0001% of GAA member activity. You would be laughed out of any court even a Diplock Court.

Just take a comparison with perceptions.

I am not talking here about the constitutionally sectarian Orange Order and it's right to do whatever within the bounds of the law but the Live BBC NI coverage, lauding sycophantically over what it called this Ulster Culture Event, while the band in the background was pumping out The Billy Boys. They even listed the few sectarian tunes they play, oh the Billy Boys chuckle chuckle, other times flashing back to pictures of the bonfire while the presenters regaled us with more and more of this cultural event, community event, fair enough we just about missed the large tricolour with KAT (kill all taigs) prominently headlined flying high at the top of the bonfire before being consumed in the fire. This is the NI British Broadcasting Corporation FFS, not just giving normal extensive news coverage but pumping credibility by the gallon into every word uttered by its presenters about this 'Ulster steeped in cultural event'
And you have some GAA members privately organizing whatever competitions in their own GAA back yard with mainly the DUP etc screaming about the so called sectarian crest on a GAA club shirt and whatever the locally organized competition the cup is named after.

Just think about that for minute and consider the perceptions of the levels of institutionalized bigotry that an observer might ascertain from that.
IMO that's one lopsided fecked up society.
That's part the overall context that I draw my perspectives from.

[EalingGreen]

Just take a comparison with perceptions.

I am not talking here about the constitutionally sectarian Orange Order and it's right to do whatever within the bounds of the law but the Live BBC NI coverage, lauding sycophantically over what it called this Ulster Culture Event, while the band in the background was pumping out The Billy Boys. They even listed the few sectarian tunes they play, oh the Billy Boys chuckle chuckle, other times flashing back to pictures of the bonfire while the presenters regaled us with more and more of this cultural event, community event, fair enough we just about missed the large tricolour with KAT (kill all taigs) prominently headlined flying high at the top of the bonfire before being consumed in the fire. This is the NI British Broadcasting Corporation FFS, not just giving normal extensive news coverage but pumping credibility by the gallon into every word uttered by its presenters about this 'Ulster steeped in cultural event'
And you have some GAA members privately organizing whatever competitions in their own GAA back yard with mainly the DUP etc screaming about the so called sectarian crest on a GAA club shirt and whatever the locally organized competition the cup is named after.

Just think about that for minute and consider the perceptions of the levels of institutionalized bigotry that an observer might ascertain from that.
IMO that's one lopsided fecked up society.
That's part the overall context that I draw my perspectives from.

It seems to me you "draw your perspective" from comparing the GAA with the Orange Order.

What has the OO got to do with the proposed new Stadium for the Maze (or NI soccer generally)?

To borrow your own phrase, that is "one lopsided fecked up" line of reasoning.

[geysir]

it seems to me you "draw your perspective" from comparing the GAA with the Orange Order.

No not all comparing the GAA with the Orange Order
"but the Live BBC NI coverage, lauding sycophantically over what it called this Ulster Culture Event"

Do you get the point?

[EalingGreen]

No not all comparing the GAA with the Orange Order
"but the Live BBC NI coverage, lauding sycophantically over what it called this Ulster Culture Event"

Do you get the point?

Absolutely not.

This thread is about the Maze Stadium, which it is proposed should be shared by Football, GAA and Rugby. It deviated somewhat along one particular aspect - namely, the "political" aspect of two of those parties (GAA and Football), as threads often do.

But what on earth the Editorial Policy of BBC NI in televising Orange Order Parades on the Twelfth of July has got to do with any of this thread is completely beyond me.

[geysir]

what on earth the Editorial Policy of BBC NI in televising Orange Order Parades on the Twelfth of July has got to do with any of this thread is completely beyond me.

Then you would have had to follow the discussion. Sometimes people compare.
Do you actually take on board what it is the significance of the BBC NI spiel on the Orange Order. Maybe you are use to the 12th, you know the O O are a bunch of has been bigots, you ignore the whole razzamataz and deal with it in some way. Maybe the last thing you would watch is BBC Live coverage programme of the 12th parades
If you need it spelt out. The GAA, officially, according to some, is a firebrand of republican sectarianism.
Me, looking at how the Orange Orange was being presented by the State Broadcaster, the BBC NI without hesitation or pause for breath with such effusive language for a couple of hours as Ulster, as Ulster culture, as ambassadors for Ulster Culture, as Ulster's Cultural heritage, as the tourist attraction with the economic benifit. I'd argue that NI society has a hell of a lot more to consider that's blocking it's way forward before putting a magnifying glass to the GAA and getting upset by some competition name in some sports club.

[BleusAvantTout]

Geysir - for BBC NI to show a cultural event is amazing! There must have been no bogball or bog hockey to be shown that day!!

[geysir]

There will be live coverage today. A 36,000 sell out for USCF. The Tricolour flying and Anthem sung, if only to make sure that we still get the right sort of crowd
ATM Ulster GAA is not desperate re attendance capacity of current stadiums, just the comfort levels are primevil.
GAA supporters would probably prefer if one of their own stadiums in Ulster be brought up to modern standards re seats and cover.

[Buller]

ATM Ulster GAA is not desperate re attendance capacity of current stadiums, just the comfort levels are primevil.
GAA supporters would probably prefer if one of their own stadiums in Ulster be brought up to modern standards re seats and cover.

Let them pay for it themselves then! They get enough free grants to build stadiums down here...