What Iceland match?Originally Posted by geysir
I was at our last game in Iceland and I didn't see "a few hundred union jack clad gstq billy boys".
There was 80 of us, and there were no sectarian chants and very few Union Flags.
And yes, we were guilty of singing the national anthem of the United Kingdom Of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
Farcical granted.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
Yawn......
If you were coming 2-3 times a year no-one would give a feck. You were just a novelty for the bored youth, so don't flatter yourselves.
Sure we could just play all our games agaionst you at Windsor, like Cliftonville were forced to for decades.....
No more confused than supporting Derry City and Finn Harps.And they say it's unionists who are confused about their identity.
My allegiances start from the local and work their way upwards. Hence, NI could feasibly fit within that, as they're more local to me than the Republic.
Exactly.No more confused than supporting Derry City and Finn Harps.
My allegiances start from the local and work their way upwards. Hence, NI could feasibly fit within that, as they're more local to me than the Republic.
So what would you like to happen in order for you to become a fully fledged Northern Ireland fan?
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
As you've been so open-minded to ask, ratehr than just assume or lambast me, I'll happily tell you - though you many not like my thoughts !
I want to feel that supporting Northern Ireland is exactly that - supporting the football team that represents the part of the world I'm from. When I support Derry City, I'm supporting my home team, my town, my family, my friends etc. I'm not supporting Ireland, notions of Irishness, my religion, my 'culture' or anything like that. Hence why I (and the overwhelming majority of Derry fans) am all about wearing red n' white, singing songs that are just about the club, not waving the Irish flag etc etc. It's all about the football to me. I made a conscious decision to stop carinig about Celtic a few years back, as I just couldn't stand the sectarian trappings that come with them. I'd be delighted to see them beaten by any other Scottish team that doesn't similarily come with sectarian trappings (e.g. when Clyde put them out of the Cup).
Given the above philosophy, when I then transfer that to international football that does not suddenly make me some form of nationalist bigot with questionable motives looking to spitefully emasculate the great British institution that is Northern Ireland FC. Rather, I'd just like a football team that is about our piece of the planet. Not one that is as much about someone elses 'culture', politicis or identity, let alone one that hides behind notions of 'officialdom' to justify asserting such an exclusively British identity/'culture'.
I'd therefore like some sort of neutral anthem rather than GSTQ. I'd ideally like the NI Assembly to come up with it's own flag - one that again favours no side over the other, and that the people of Norn Iron can unite behind, rather than shake at each otehr to further fragment us. I'd even prefer the old Stormont flag to the Union flag, as at least it's local - but the bottom line is that that flag was designed to portray the 'Britishness' of Northern Ireland, and is therefore inherently one-sided. I'd like to see games played in a more neutral part of the province - which appears to be being addressed.
The bottom line is that no institution claiming to represent Northern Ireland can legitimately claim to do so whilst it so closely and excluysively allies itself with the symbolism and identity of only one part of our deeply divided province. If the above were to happen I would geneuinely feel much more at ease with the concept of supporting Norn Iron, and much happier about giving it a go. Likewise for a lot of my friends living in Belfast I'd imagine.
The dinosaurs like David will no doubt fume at this, and interpret it as attempts to deny them their identity. But a team representing Northern Ireland should never have been the exclusive preserve of one community in the first place. I'm not proposing replacing the Britishness of NIFC with Irishness - just making it less divisive and more acceptable to all of us.
Maybe the idea that football could stay about football and that we could all united behind ateam like we do with many other sports individuals/teams is naive of me. But that's my view, and that's what would make me much more likely to identify with what is supposedly the team representing my country.
Am I being thoroughly unreasonable....?
Last edited by dcfcsteve; 18/08/2006 at 4:58 PM.
P.S. One caveat I will have to add, however, is that I don't believe in the idea of turning your back on someone who has helped you in your hour of need.
Therefore - I would find it difficult to put Northern Ireland above the Republic in my allegiances, because the FAI did my club a huge favour when our own supposed footballing authority had left us for dead. I therefore have a debt of gratitude tying me closer to the ROI team than most Northern Catholics/nationalists would have.
But just like I want Finn Harps and Derry to both do well, that wouldn't prevent me from genuinely wanting the North and the Republic to both do well in the vast majority of times when they never actually meet.
dcfc steve,
"I'd therefore like some sort of neutral anthem rather than GSTQ."
So would I.
"I'd ideally like the NI Assembly to come up with it's own flag - one that again favours no side over the other, and that the people of Norn Iron can unite behind, rather than shake at each otehr to further fragment us."
Fair point.
"I'd even prefer the old Stormont flag to the Union flag, as at least it's local"
Northern Ireland play under the old Stormont Flag of Northern Ireland, not the Union Flag.
"I'd like to see games played in a more neutral part of the province - which appears to be being addressed."
Hopefully a new stadium in Belfast, and not a "white elephant" at the Maze.
The Lisburn Road, which is where I enter Windsor Park from, is absolutely mixed by the way.
"The dinosaurs like David will no doubt fume at this, and interpret it as attempts to deny them their identity"
In my dealings with David, I know him to be a very fair and reasonable man. Certainly not a "dinosaur".
"Maybe the idea that football could stay about football and that we could all united behind ateam like we do with many other sports individuals/teams is naive of me."
Not naive at all. One of the problems tho is that the largest sporting organisation on the island is exclusively nationalist/republican. When I do my bit to try and bring about change at Northern ireland games, I am repeatedly reminded about that.
I'm an Ireland rugby supporter too. When I go to Dublin to watch them play, why should I have to listen to the National Anthem of the Republic Of Ireland and see thousands of tricolors?
"Am I being thoroughly unreasonable....?"
Absolutely not. Your points are very reasonable indeed.
I genuinely don't believe there is a limit in how far the IFA can go with trying to attract a broader fanbase.
The bottom line is that many nationalists and all republicans don't recognise the state of Northern Ireland (they can't even say it's name ffs) and are therefore unlikely to support a team that legitimises that state.
Basically, the fact that we are Northern Ireland is too much for many to handle.
Many want to see our international team disappear altogether. They will not be dictating what anthem or what flag we fly - I can assure you that changes will come only if and when Northern Ireland fans (of whatever hue) decide to make them.
Does that make sense to you?
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
It does.
The irony, however, is that keeping the Northern Irish team 'British' actually works to undermine the legitimacy of Northern Ireland as a political institution.
It's well known that there won't be a United Ireland in NI until the majority of the population actively indicate that they want one. But the flip-side of that is that the Union will only be maintained whilst the majority of the population support the concept of a Northern Ireland separate form the Republic. Having Nationalists alienated from the Northern Irish football team and instead giving their allegiances to the Republic, therefore, actively works against this !
I would also say that your wrong to opine that Nationalists are broadly lost to the Norn Irish team. If the politics got removed from the football, then over-time and with a few good results I could see nationalists returning to the terraces. Also - don't assume that the current situation will always be maintained. The depth and strength of both Reopublican and nationalist sentiments will undoubtedly soften with peace and a more balanced/inclusive society. Now, Nationalists supporting the NI team wouldn't alter their political aspirations - and nor should it - just like NI protestant rugby supporters going to Lansdowne Rd doesn't question their political aspirations or identity. But Irish rugby hasn't been dogged by the got political and sectarian associations that northern soccer has - hence it has never lost the support of Northern Protestants. If NI football dropped its political connotations, then it would be perfectly feasible that over-time it too would gain broader affinity.
And if both communities could genuinely unite behind supporting their local team, then that would do more to maintain the political status quo in the province than any misplaced notions of self-consciously waving a Union Flag and singing GSTQ at an international in Windsor could ever do. So removing the exclusively British identity of the NI team could, over time and in the context of other changes, actually help to keep the province British ! Slightly naive perhaps - but unless a majority of the province are made to feel wanted, respected and included, then NI's status within the Union could feasibly come under threat with time. It's noth the hardcore Republicans you need to worry about - it's the moderate nationalists like me, who accept the Union in the absence of a majority demand for an alternative, who are the group who could make or break the Union at soem point !
Last edited by dcfcsteve; 18/08/2006 at 6:02 PM.
dcfc steve,
The bottom line is that change will come from within the ranks of the Northern Ireland fanbase.
I don't go to watch Northern Ireland to listen to anthems or look at flags.
I go because it's players from my part of the world playing, and I am very proud of them.
I was born in Northern Ireland, so I support Northern Ireland.
I know that might be overly simplistic, but that's the way it is.
I can appreciate that we live in a divided society, and people get worked up about anthems and things.
Personally, I'm getting more into the Sepp Blatter school of anthem thinking - just do away with them all at international games.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
Don't disagree with any of that.
However - whilst the NI fanbase is so predominately Unionist/Loyalist, how likely is it that they would accept having an NI team that no longer exclusively reflects their identity ?
How can people find a flag so offensive? How can people ind GSTQ so offensive? As NB has said, people from up here are happy to accept both in reverse when they go to Landsdowne Road for rugby. I could live with the scrapping completely of national anthems but where I differ with NB is that I would not agree to it being changed. As long as national anthems are being played before games that is exactly what I want played for Northern Ireland, the national anthem of orthern Ireland which is GSTQ. That is not trying to exclude anyone. To be honest I think if any action was taken on such things, Northern Ireland would lose more fans than they would gain.
Well, the team itself reflects both main identities in Northern Ireland. Always has, always will at every level.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
I wholly respect your viewpoint David, but the Scots and Welsh have stirring anthems of their own, and England might be down that route soon too.
Having a uniqely Northern Irish sporting anthem would be a good thing in my opinion - if we are to have anthems at all.
I believe more and more Northern Ireland fans are of that opinion.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
All entitled to our opinion mate. Personally I believe the national anthem should be just that but each to their own. Thing is we are not going to lose support by keeping it but we will undoubtedly lose support if we drop it in my opinion.
That wasn't my question though - unless you're suggestin letting the players themselves decide what flag and anthem they play under....?
As a young nationalist and football fan I think I can say with some degree of certainty that this debate is futile. Not one person I go to the Brandy or seldomly Landsdowne with will ever follow NI as they do not think the country should exist. That isn't meant to be offensive to those of unionist persuasion at all and shouldn't be used as an excuse to have a Loyalist day out at Windsor.
The sectarianism and Loyalist love-in that occurs at Windsor or that did occur in the past says a lot about Unionism but that is a debate for another day.
"The Derry fans were fantastic in both matches. They sang their hearts out all the time and created an even better atmosphere than the Cup Final. They were brilliant. - David Graham, Gretna striker
This sort of verifies what I have been saying throughout this thread and I respect this opinion completely.
It verifies your opinion to a certain extent but the way in which NI fans behave makes for a dim future for NI football. It is sad in this day and age that an activity such as going to a football match should be seen as one enjoyed by only one community. I will never lend my support to NI but I am sure there are fans like Steve who would be open to the idea, why should being British and proud be manifested via a football match.
I am incredibly proud to be from Derry and that is why I support City, in no way does my pride in being Irish come through at the Brandy. Can Windsor regulars not just find pride in their "country" rather than the UK?
"The Derry fans were fantastic in both matches. They sang their hearts out all the time and created an even better atmosphere than the Cup Final. They were brilliant. - David Graham, Gretna striker
Speranza,
I respect your honesty, and you confirm my earlier comments.
What we have done for international games at Windsor is try to ensure that anyone who wants to support Northern Ireland, regardless of their religion or politics, can do so in an atmosphere free from sectarianism etc.
Obviously if you don't want to support Northern Ireland, those efforts are irrelevent.
We've been pretty succcessful to date, although the work in ongoing.
We've all but removed sectarian singing....which you must appreciate was deeply offensive to many Northern Ireland fans.
There'll be some major news soon providing recognition from the powers that be of the progress Northern Ireland fans have made to make our games a brilliant day out - win, lose or draw.
PS. Pat and Mark must not completely concur with your sentiments.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
There haven't been any complaints, to be fair.That wasn't my question though - unless you're suggestin letting the players themselves decide what flag and anthem they play under....?
If a player raised the matter, I think it would merit being taken serously.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
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