Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

[EalingGreen]

I have to come clean EalingGreen - my suggestions were based on the 2024/25 licensing criteria for... drum roll please... the NIFL Premiership!

Aye, I must say I thought they looked familiar, but I couldn't find that particular link on the IFA's website, so had to make do with what I did find.

I take Buckett's point that LOI are so desperate for teams to join that they give out derogations yearly. But surely that means it makes more sense to lower our standards to a more attainable level? I thought Shels removing seats behind the goal in Tolka Park (to make it standing) improved the atmosphere of the place despite this moving them further away from Cat 2 standards.

The problem when accepting lower entry standards is that after the 3rd tier is up-and-running, and you then require the clubs to upgrade their facilities, what happens if they can't/won't? (They'll claim that they need what little money they have to keep them competitive on the playing front.)

With no 4th tier and below, the clubs wouldn't be subject to relegation, nor could the FAI simply throw them out, seeing as they lack any replacements. You might replace one or two errant clubs by clubs relegated from the First Division, except that the club(s) finishing top of the Third Tier couldn't/wouldn't step up in turn to replace them.

I'm said it so often I'm even boring myself(!), but you cannot build a pyramid from the top down, it has to be from the bottom up, until your leading clubs in the lower tiers have been sufficiently built up to bridge the gap to the top tiers.

Meanwhile, one additional side issue which may have a bearing is that of ground ownership. You will know much better than me, do many clubs in ROI - all levels - own their own grounds? Am open to correction, but I get the impression that more clubs in NI own their grounds than down South, at higher levels at least.

Which is important since clubs will be far more willing to improve their stadia if they own them than if they don't, esp when improvements pay for themselves to some extent by generating increased revenues.

[sbgawa]

I was talkinmg to a seniorish ref in the LSL and he told me (i sound like Enda Kenny meeting a "man" in the pub)....and he told me a good few of his referee mates would be in favour of a move to Summer soccer and aligning with the LOI.
Something id never considered before but he told me that the better refs operating at junior level and aspiring to move up see the disconnect between junor and senior soccer as a barrier to entry for them.
Not the first time ive never considered something from a refs perspectives.

Ive no idea how representative he is and how many "mates" he was talking about but considering the shortage of referees it could be another straw towards breaking this particular camels back.

[Elfman]

Aye, I must say I thought they looked familiar, but I couldn't find that particular link on the IFA's website, so had to make do with what I did find.

I think you might have shared the latest version before as I'd say that's where I got it from. Thank you if you did because I have to say I think they're great. Much more reasonable than demanding Category 1 stadiums from everyone without enforcing it - let UEFA do that if people qualify for Europe.

The problem when accepting lower entry standards is that after the 3rd tier is up-and-running, and you then require the clubs to upgrade their facilities, what happens if they can't/won't? (They'll claim that they need what little money they have to keep them competitive on the playing front.)

With no 4th tier and below, the clubs wouldn't be subject to relegation, nor could the FAI simply throw them out, seeing as they lack any replacements. You might replace one or two errant clubs by clubs relegated from the First Division, except that the club(s) finishing top of the Third Tier couldn't/wouldn't step up in turn to replace them.

Yes well I'd agree that any third tier would have to be created with a view to connecting to the existing 4th tiers (currently Leinster Senior League and Munster Senior League - not sure if Ulster Senior League is still running). And obviously you're adjusting the standards in the Prem and 1st Division so the leap isn't as great as it would be right now (and that's before we talk misaligned calendars!).

As for what to do if clubs can't or won't meet the standards, then you simply do what happens in England: if none of the winning teams in the divisions below meet the licensing criteria, they won't get promoted. This means there will be a reprieve for the team that should have been relegated, but only a reprieve. Wouldn't the same thing happen in the Northern Irish leagues if a promoted club didn't meet the criteria or is there a different option in place?

I'm said it so often I'm even boring myself(!), but you cannot build a pyramid from the top down, it has to be from the bottom up, until your leading clubs in the lower tiers have been sufficiently built up to bridge the gap to the top tiers.

Meanwhile, one additional side issue which may have a bearing is that of ground ownership. You will know much better than me, do many clubs in ROI - all levels - own their own grounds? Am open to correction, but I get the impression that more clubs in NI own their grounds than down South, at higher levels at least.

Which is important since clubs will be far more willing to improve their stadia if they own them than if they don't, esp when improvements pay for themselves to some extent by generating increased revenues.

Again I agree with you about the pyramid but the problem is that we don't even have one. I think connecting the different pieces together, so that movement is possible theoretically even if not realistically, needs to take place first and then you can start building better standards from the bottom up. Ground ownership is a good point and while I don't have the numbers to hand, the best junior teams I'm familiar with do own their own pitches. However, as a country we suffer with a lack of sports facilities in general and I've been told by coaches at grassroots level that some areas in the country have too many clubs to support teams at each age level and too few pitches to play on. So I guess it depends on where we're talking about starting for the bottom of the pyramid - counties? districts? parishes?

[Elfman]

I was talkinmg to a seniorish ref in the LSL and he told me (i sound like Enda Kenny meeting a "man" in the pub)....and he told me a good few of his referee mates would be in favour of a move to Summer soccer and aligning with the LOI.
Something id never considered before but he told me that the better refs operating at junior level and aspiring to move up see the disconnect between junor and senior soccer as a barrier to entry for them.
Not the first time ive never considered something from a refs perspectives.

Ive no idea how representative he is and how many "mates" he was talking about but considering the shortage of referees it could be another straw towards breaking this particular camels back.

Another interesting dimension to the discussion. Do we know how new LOI refs are chosen at the moment? Are they only selected from the provincial Senior Leagues?

[sbgawa]

I googled all our favourite referees Rob Hennessy and he came from the clare schoolboys league and the clare District league ....a big loss to them
I suppose they must all come through the junior leagues although I think damien mcgrath just wondered onto the pitch one day on his way from specsavers and decided to give it a go.

[Elfman]

A big jump to go from that level to the LOI. Haha, I'll say nothing here on that subject - I don't want a Stephen Bradley type ban!

[Buckett]

The underage LOI is where they would test out potential senior referees I'd imagine, after doing well in their district leagues.

[EalingGreen]

Yes well I'd agree that any third tier would have to be created with a view to connecting to the existing 4th tiers (currently Leinster Senior League and Munster Senior League - not sure if Ulster Senior League is still running). And obviously you're adjusting the standards in the Prem and 1st Division so the leap isn't as great as it would be right now (and that's before we talk misaligned calendars!).

Except that if it hasn't really proven feasible to "connect downwards" from the top two tiers to third tier, similarly it's not going to be feasible to connect further down from third tier to fourth and fifth.

The answer surely has to be to raise the game (playing standards, facilities, support, structures etc) from the bottom up, so that clubs can ascend to their optimal level as and when they're genuinely ready, not when, in the absence of any alternatives, the FAI/LOI says they'd like them to "have a go".

I mean, like the 'A' League before it, some of these proposals for the Third Tier are like Karaoke Night down the local pub: "Is there anyone else out there who'd like to come up on stage and have a go?" That's not how professional singers/bands develop, they have to learn their trade/pay their dues in small venues, earning little more than petrol money to start with, while they learn how to play and build an audience etc. And it's the pretty much the same with Football. (In other words it's a question of commitment. Or do I mean "The Commitments"? )

As for what to do if clubs can't or won't meet the standards, then you simply do what happens in England: if none of the winning teams in the divisions below meet the licensing criteria, they won't get promoted. This means there will be a reprieve for the team that should have been relegated, but only a reprieve. Wouldn't the same thing happen in the Northern Irish leagues if a promoted club didn't meet the criteria or is there a different option in place?

Not sure exactly how it works everywhere in England, but we had exactly that problem in the IL last season. Dundela were flying high in the Championship (2nd Tier) and hoping to get promotion, if not automatically in top spot, then via finishing second and winning a play-off against the team finishing second bottom in the Prem.

However, because their pitch didn't meet the minimum width requirements for a Premiership Licence, they were told they could not be promoted. Instead, the automatic or play-off place would go to the next highest club who were eligible for a Prem Licence. Now as it happens, they eventually finished two points short of the play-off position, four short of automatic, so it was all academic. But the point is that the Duns are a leading and long-established club, who have held their own at the second or third level for years, and whose facilities and set-up are otherwise pretty good (indeed better, I'd say, than eg some LOI FD clubs):
https://www.newsletter.co.uk/sport/f...ations-4525890
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023%E...L_Championship

Again I agree with you about the pyramid but the problem is that we don't even have one. I think connecting the different pieces together, so that movement is possible theoretically even if not realistically, needs to take place first and then you can start building better standards from the bottom up. Ground ownership is a good point and while I don't have the numbers to hand, the best junior teams I'm familiar with do own their own pitches. However, as a country we suffer with a lack of sports facilities in general and I've been told by coaches at grassroots level that some areas in the country have too many clubs to support teams at each age level and too few pitches to play on. So I guess it depends on where we're talking about starting for the bottom of the pyramid - counties? districts? parishes?

From this outsider's viewpoint, I have to say your last sentence nails exactly how/why the FAI/LOI is getting it wrong.

For if a pyramid has to be built from the ground up, then before you even get to the construction phase, you have to have to have the right building blocks. And that must mean existing clubs, which are good enough to compete on the field, and strong enough, infrastructure-wise, to sustain themselves off it. Which suitability they must prove by working their way up through local leagues, then regional leagues, to Senior level, whilst also gaining the appropriate Licences.

And if such clubs are concentrated in certain areas which may already be well represented with Senior clubs, as they will likely be, then so be it. For that is simply a reflection that the game is obviously stronger in some areas than others. The corollary of which is that if other areas do not have such candidate clubs, there has to be a reason why eg population, tradition, competition with GAA etc. All of which means that it must be far harder to pluck some new, made-up club out of thin air and hope that it will thrive, or take a very minor existing one out in the sticks, than promote one which has already put in the hard yards over many years to prove it is fit, regardless of where it is located.

So the FAI really needs to forget this idea of "counties? districts? parishes?", a notion that may be suitable for a predominantly rural and amateur sport like GAA, and concentrate instead on promoting (literally and figuratively) proper clubs, in competitive leagues, based in areas which can sustain their development ( i.e. crowds, facilities, travelling etc)

I mean, it's not even as if you're permanently writing off these other non-footballing regions either, since experience eg in NI has shown that if you build a solid base in your traditional heartland (Belfast, Antrim, North Down, mid-Ulster etc), it is entirely possible in time to expand from the centre out to the regions (Tyrone, Fermanagh, South Down etc.)

[Elfman]

Except that if it hasn't really proven feasible to "connect downwards" from the top two tiers to third tier, similarly it's not going to be feasible to connect further down from third tier to fourth and fifth.

The answer surely has to be to raise the game (playing standards, facilities, support, structures etc) from the bottom up, so that clubs can ascend to their optimal level as and when they're genuinely ready, not when, in the absence of any alternatives, the FAI/LOI says they'd like them to "have a go".

I mean, like the 'A' League before it, some of these proposals for the Third Tier are like Karaoke Night down the local pub: "Is there anyone else out there who'd like to come up on stage and have a go?" That's not how professional singers/bands develop, they have to learn their trade/pay their dues in small venues, earning little more than petrol money to start with, while they learn how to play and build an audience etc. And it's the pretty much the same with Football. (In other words it's a question of commitment. Or do I mean "The Commitments"? )

I'm a bit confused what evidence you're citing there... is the A Championship? If so, I agree that was a failure but I don't think it's intent was to connect the divisions, just an opportunity to give junior clubs a chance to play at a higher level. If not, I'd be keen to hear examples where "connecting downward" has failed when even the IFA have said they plan to insert 3 tiers into their pyramid (below the Championship and above the Intermediate leagues):
https://www.newsletter.co.uk/sport/f...n-2026-4627896

What I really like about this proposal is clubs categorising themselves as Performance clubs or Everyday clubs: those clubs that want to progress through the pyramid and those clubs who prefer to focus on player participation. We might find out that all clubs below LOI level want to stay as everyday clubs, which would make a third tier a moot point.

Anyway, I'm keen to avoid the discussion descending into another 'third tier vs no third tier' debate. I've already pointed out that I agree with you about building from the bottom of the pyramid but the thread is called 'Third Tier Talk' so I'd prefer to focus on how a third tier could feasibly work.

Obviously the calendars would need to be aligned. Obviously running costs would have to be more practical (through travel reduction, amateur teams, grants, etc.). What I think is worthy of discussion is how that would look. What are the basics we would expect if we went to see a top amateur team? Separate toilets for home and away supporters might be a stretch at that level but surely separate toilets for men and women should not be. Could the LSL and MSL meet these standards? Let's ask them!

If we draw up new league stadium standards, similar to the NIPL, that are more realistic than UEFA's categories but this time we actually enforce them, it would help to regulate standards across the board. Most LOI teams don't qualify for Category 2 and none of the First Division sides qualify for Cat 1 (there was no TV studio at the recent U21s game in Turners Cross!). Your example of Dundela is a great one: OK it seems a little harsh but of course they shouldn't get promoted if the team directly below them meets the requirements. If you're not holding people to existing standards then you might as well have no standards at all, right?

[EalingGreen]

I'm a bit confused what evidence you're citing there... is the A Championship? If so, I agree that was a failure but I don't think it's intent was to connect the divisions, just an opportunity to give junior clubs a chance to play at a higher level.

I don't think it's entirely correct to say that the 'A' Championship wasn't intended "to connect the divisions", since (non-Reserve) teams were entitled to be promoted to the second tier. Indeed Mervue and Salthill both managed it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Championship

If not, I'd be keen to hear examples where "connecting downward" has failed when even the IFA have said they plan to insert 3 tiers into their pyramid (below the Championship and above the Intermediate leagues):
https://www.newsletter.co.uk/sport/f...n-2026-4627896

I think you're misunderstanding this latest move by the IFA. That is, for whatever reason, the NIFL, which runs Senior football autonomously in NI (devolved by the IFA, basically), has decided it doesn't want to continue running the Premier Intermediate League (3rd tier).

Meaning that the IFA will now take responsibilty for administering third level football, as well as further down. But this latest move should not be construed as "inserting three tiers into the pyramid", rather it taking the opportunity restructure/rationalise the existing structure, involving the existing clubs, as they've been doing continuously ever since the present basic structure was originally set up.

What I really like about this proposal is clubs categorising themselves as Performance clubs or Everyday clubs: those clubs that want to progress through the pyramid and those clubs who prefer to focus on player participation. We might find out that all clubs below LOI level want to stay as everyday clubs, which would make a third tier a moot point.

No offence, but having two different categories of club in the same Division is kinda contradictory.
Now I know that some Leagues (eg Scotland, Spain, Netherlands) have a handful of Senior clubs' Reserve teams playing in lower tier divisions. But that is a reflection of the fact that there is such a disparity between the Senior clubs' standards, even at top tier level, that they could not sustain a straight Reserve League (Celtic Reserves vs Ross County Reserves anyone?).
Therefore the big clubs are allowed to insert their Reserves into lower divisions to give them proper competition, and/or make up the numbers.
But outwith all those few clubs, the remainder, who make up the great majority, are all expected to compete for promotion up the pyramid as best they can.

Anyway, I'm keen to avoid the discussion descending into another 'third tier vs no third tier' debate. I've already pointed out that I agree with you about building from the bottom of the pyramid but the thread is called 'Third Tier Talk' so I'd prefer to focus on how a third tier could feasibly work.

Obviously the calendars would need to be aligned. Obviously running costs would have to be more practical (through travel reduction, amateur teams, grants, etc.). What I think is worthy of discussion is how that would look. What are the basics we would expect if we went to see a top amateur team? Separate toilets for home and away supporters might be a stretch at that level but surely separate toilets for men and women should not be. Could the LSL and MSL meet these standards? Let's ask them!

If we draw up new league stadium standards, similar to the NIPL, that are more realistic than UEFA's categories but this time we actually enforce them, it would help to regulate standards across the board. Most LOI teams don't qualify for Category 2 and none of the First Division sides qualify for Cat 1 (there was no TV studio at the recent U21s game in Turners Cross!). Your example of Dundela is a great one: OK it seems a little harsh but of course they shouldn't get promoted if the team directly below them meets the requirements. If you're not holding people to existing standards then you might as well have no standards at all, right?

That's all fair enough.

But if NI, with 40% of ROI's population (and 30% of its wealth?) can implement a pyramid, there is no good (emphasise) reason why ROI cannot. Ditto Wales and Scotland etc. But the FAI's problem is that they have prioritised the top two tiers to the complete exclusion of everyone else below, made worse by the season misalignment.

Therefore imo they are very unlikely to succeed by carrying on down that road, while hoping to to drag everyone else behind them, since the rest cannot keep up. Indeed the gap is so wide that the rest don't even want to.

Instead the FAI must surely concentrate on building up the clubs outside the top two tiers organically, so that they will eventually catch up themselves under their own efforts.

Which is only what happens/has happened in every other comparable system.

[Elfman]

*Sigh* OK EG, you've made your point. You don't feel a third tier at this point will work. Now, with all due respect, can we please move on to a less reductive discussion?

I'll try to take up your example of the A Championship - yes, it wasn't intended to connect the divisions: it plucked out junior & reserve teams and put them on the national stage. I'm open to correction but I believe only Fanad United and maybe Tullamore Town were coming from the provincial leagues and I don't believe Tullamore had won the LSL the year before.

So with the intent being to "connect downwards" then instead of promoting junior clubs (and I appreciate some junior clubs are better equipped than some provincial teams) a potential third tier could draw on merit from the winners & play-off winners of the provincial leagues. But understanding the details behind why the provincial winners don't want to go national is of paramount importance. Any ideas?

I see the problems, namely you're initially looking at Cork & Dublin teams while most of the other teams will be LOI reserve teams, but the hope is this might encourage Salthill, Westport, Castlebar and Mervue to form a Connacht Senior League. Maybe Nigel or Mr A can offer their view on whether this would encourage revival of the USL?

[nigel-harps1954]

There's zero chance of an USL revival. A small number of clubs ruined it for everyone else and there's no appetite to go back to it.

[Elfman]

Cheers for the insight Nigel. What would be the main attractions for a provincal Donegal club heading back to their district league - reduced travel costs and increased prestige?

[Buckett]

Is there prizemoney for Leinster/Munster Senior League?

[nigel-harps1954]

Cheers for the insight Nigel. What would be the main attractions for a provincal Donegal club heading back to their district league - reduced travel costs and increased prestige?

Clubs went back to the Donegal League and Inishowen League because they couldn't compete with clubs paying out big wages in USL.

It was left with a situation where there were only five teams left in the USL, two of which were reserve teams of Finn Harps and Derry City. Travel wasn't really an issue as the USL was effectively just a Donegal super league, plus Monaghan United for a year.

[Burnsie]

Is there prizemoney for Leinster/Munster Senior League?

you'd be lucky to get a bag of footballs

[Buckett]

you'd be lucky to get a bag of footballs

Ya, I thought so. If FAI are serious about a third tier there will have to be money on the table

[Burnsie]

And that's why, in my view, there's not a hope that it'll attract a single existing junior or intermediate club, bar maybe the odd quirky outlier. We're already two years past when it was initially due to launch, and essentially established club has expressed the slightest bit of interest.

You're asking them to sign up to a whole range expense and regulation, without any prospect of recouping the costs.

In a functioning footballing country, there would be six-figure grants to incentivise participation.

Sure the FAI can't even intervene to get an under 13 girls league going in North Dublin. How are they going to persuade 40+ adult leagues to switch to a calendar year season?

You can list off as many provincial towns as you like in this thread, but from what I've seen there's zero chance of a genuine pyramid in this country for the next generation at least.

[nigel-harps1954]

And that's why, in my view, there's not a hope that it'll attract a single existing junior or intermediate club, bar maybe the odd quirky outlier. We're already two years past when it was initially due to launch, and essentially established club has expressed the slightest bit of interest.

You're asking them to sign up to a whole range expense and regulation, without any prospect of recouping the costs.

In a functioning footballing country, there would be six-figure grants to incentivise participation.

Sure the FAI can't even intervene to get an under 13 girls league going in North Dublin. How are they going to persuade 40+ adult leagues to switch to a calendar year season?

You can list off as many provincial towns as you like in this thread, but from what I've seen there's zero chance of a genuine pyramid in this country for the next generation at least.

There's already the three former USL teams, Bonagee United, Letterkenny Rovers and Cockhill Celtic who have expressed interest in joining the third tier.

[Elfman]

Ya, I thought so. If FAI are serious about a third tier there will have to be money on the table

I agree with you on this so to play Devil's Advocate for a moment... What if we made the third tier amateur? It would help with the problem Nigel mentioned about a lack of competition due to wage disparity.

I know it doesn't fix the calendar issue as Burnsie says so I'm trying to think of other concessions, like realistic stadium criteria or regulations, that could be done before/if the calendar is ever aligned.