No we weren't if you look at the stats. On the scoreline yes but in that game Portugal has 29 shots to our 6 (last night it was 20 to 5). Scorelines can be deceptive like in the Hungary game where we were terrible and won. We've had 5 shots on target in the last 4 games, admittedly against strong opposition but we're going no where unless we can create more. I like JOS but I'm not sure he's the Houdini we need.Originally Posted by Jd2793
Forget about the performance or entertainment. It's only the result that matters.
most of those portugal shots were from outside the box or shots that were blocked etc. they had 1 real clear chance outside of the pen in the whole game. we frustrated them well for 89 mins and defended our box well for once under kenny. ronaldo magic undone us but we were miles better in that game than we were last night. last night was as pathetic a performance you'll see v a big team. 5-0 wouldnt have flattered portugal.
They did well to win 2-1 so.
They hit the woodwork twice and missed an effective open goal, plus the penalty and two goals, so there's six real chances off the top of my head.
(I do like seeing OwlsFan arguing the value of performance over the result btw)
The historical structures are what led to there being a gulf in the squad with us having an incredibly thin selection to choose from between the 23-31 year old odd age group. We're now expecting a lot of very promising kids before they're ready. The jump from underage to senior is massive, plenty of underage world cup winners never even get senior caps.
Lookit, I'll try and explain the general point I was trying to make one more time before I derail the thread replying to random bits. It's a multi layered thing, involving multiple discussions at the one time, and it is not as simple as manager good, we win, manager bad, we lose.
IMO lads who think Kenny or any other single manager solely set us back are completely missing the point about everything that is/was actually wrong with Irish football.
IMO this is all on Delaney and his enablers and the lack of structures within the FAI at the time. We kept chasing short term fixes, neglected underage for a long long time. Under Trap, Mick and Martin, we were often very slow to cap new prospects. For instance losing both Grealish and Rice were incredible failure on the hands of multiple people. It took an age for someone like Coleman or McClean to be capped. Matt Doherty was actually incredible for a couple of seasons and was barely given an opportunity. It also took ages for someone like Wes to get a chance. They're just the most egregious random examples off of the top of my head indicative of a wider issue. We just did not have a real pathway from underage to senior or a culture of giving opportunities to promising prospects, lads in their mid 20's were ignored for as long as possible until it became blindingly obvious that they should get a chance.
We had a stronger squad in general too ofc, but there was no one like Kerr in the background bringing through the next generation and really excelling, and no one above that willing to give them a chance. I don't think only ever thinking about the now will serve you well in the long term, it's a bad way to live your life and it's an even worse way to run a football association. Didn't the under 21's more or less do nothing for a decade? As those stars of the past aged out of the squad, they weren't really effectively replaced, some could never be replaced, but it didn't feel like we even tried, we just held on for dear life for as long as possible, hoping for one more quick fix.
The slide was here long before Kenny, he went very hard promoting youth to build depth as the arse was about to fall out of the squad. Probably too hard too soon in hindsight. It didn't work out but I fully believe we'd be even worse off if we had hired someone else who kept flogging a squad of 30+ year olds until there was nothing else. We'd be only giving half the current starting XI debut's now, trying to figure out if Kelleher/Bazunu really were ready to dislodge Randolph. It's also why I think John O' Shea has shot himself in the foot now, bringing back Brady and Duffy now, and speaking about McClean when it is clear their race is run.
The whole thing is a pile of cards. There was a big shift in how underage was viewed when Kenny got the u21 job. I don't necessarily put the improvement all down to him, but in or around that time there's been a change in how they brought through players. All the underage managers seem to be in close contact, trying to fast track the best prospects to the toughest level they can as quickly as possible to help the most promising players become the best they can be. We're beginning to really bear the fruit of that coherent planning now. All the while we have Brexit, kids now staying at home longer, it has it's advantage until they hit the age they need to be turning pro. We can't keep farming children off abroad and think it is the sustainable or correct thing to do, it is insanity, the very best will always leave, but what about everyone else? A cycle of hundreds of kids being shipped abroad only to return home broken men is largely over, and we need to find a new way.
We have to get govt funding, to start funding our league, especially heavily in to underage or we are in huge trouble. Lots of great people doing excellent work on a shoestring, they need help. Everyone knows our underage squads are doing well, and some wonderful people are doing a hell of a lot on a shoestring, but it's not sustainable, and that is why we need huge funding in to the underage national league and LOI. The facilities aren't there, we don't have half enough coaches. I think we've taken a lot of steps in the right direction, but there are so more steps to take than I think anyone can truly grasp. I don't want to believe it is the case as I am generally quite optimistic about football, but there is every chance we are screwed and the 90's/00's are never coming back.
TLDR, a lot of people have had an awful lot to say expecting quick easy fixes to a multilayered decades' long problem, and putting it all down to picking a good manager or swapping who played LWB and it is all madness to me.
Having said all of that obviously the new manager hunt is all over the shop, I don't have a good answer for who we should appoint next. Damien Duff is actually who I'd give it to if he wanted it, but he doesn't.
Last edited by Acornvilla; 12/06/2024 at 8:09 AM.
Clear to me, JOS got it horribly wrong.
It’s obvious against Portugal, you’ve got to pack the midfield, we really didn’t have the personnel in the squad to play anything other than 5 at the back, so just a 5-3-2 with Knight coming in, just cause he’s so busy and his work ethic is great. He’d press them all day.
As for the front two, we really caused them huge difficulties recently with Aaron Connolly in Game 1 (should have had 2 penos) and Cheo Ogbene in Game 2 (drew multiple cynical yellow cards and fouls in dangerous areas). It’s obvious to me, with the defenders they have, speed and to a lesser degree strength are the two attributes you want to fill those spaces with. Starting Cannon alongside Idah is what I would have done, although I could be argued around to Obafemi to see how Pepe handled him.
Finally, as admirably as he battled - makes no sense to put Coleman up against Rafael Leao. The pace differential is too much. Switch Doherty in for him.
This to me, felt a lot worse than both the performances against Portugal. This time they were comfortable the whole way through and we never really threatened them on the break or from set pieces (re the last away game - the penalty decision was dodgy anyway, never a pen, so the save was more than justified).
Obviously, it didn’t end that way - and there were far too many bad nights - but that performance away to Portugal under Kenny was everything that the pundits are saying we need to go back to. We were nasty and aggressive in and out of possession and really hard to beat
I think that's to miss the point to an extent though. Goals change games. You can argue the penalty was dodgy, but it was given. (I don't recall Connolly's second penalty shout btw?) Had it been scored, then we're 1-0 down inside ten minutes and the match could well have turned out like last night. Instead, we got a break (and another with Jota hit the post from close range) and got something to hang on to. That happens sometimes. Play the same game five times and it won't turn out the same way five times. And it doesn't mean that, if the good performance comes first, we've gone backwards when the bad performance comes along. It's just law of averages.
You can for sure argue we should have put more than Cullen and Smallbone in mid and that's a black mark on O'Shea. Saying we'd have done better with Doherty/Cannon/Obafemi starting though is a bit hopeful. Our squad is poor throughout and moving the deckchairs wouldn't necessarily have improved things (which goes back to Acornvilla's point on the greater malaise we're facing). You can argue some players had poor games last night (Should Scales have done better for the first two goals? Why did Sammie switch off for the first? Were Cullen and Parrott even on the pitch? Why did Idah keep falling over?) but I'd be inclined to give them a pass here; they were just facing far, far better players and that's what happens.
The key games for us now are Greece and Finland in the Nations League. I think we have to do better there than we did in the respective games under Kenny. If we don't - with promising players who are a couple of years further down their development than under Kenny - then things start to look very grim indeed.
I think we will get a couple of points off them though.
Agree. I think the forward three can bulk in and pack the midfield when out of possession. The main negative I have is when in possession. Ideally would like to see one of the CBs pushing up to create the space that moves the ball forward. Think we are really struggling to move the balls between the lines under JoSH as we are not creating enough out balls in possession and our midfield 2 are overworked with the ground they need to cover. Last night contrasts with the 2021 away game where there was a pattern to our play, and there was intelligence to it – example, the Connolly penalty call in the second half, John Egan saw Idah was pulled out to the corner and he busted a gut running the length of the field to be Idah in the box. And that fluidity was a feature when Barry was part of the backroom staff – we regularly saw players stepping up to fill space.
Smallbone and Cullen was our centre midfield. That was never going to end well was it?
Szmodicz is a striker, as are Parrott and Idah. So, we essentially played 3 strikers against a sh!t-hot Portugese team. What other CM did we have in the squad, in particular defensive ones?
Folding my way into the big money!!!
Actually think Smallbone done okay, Cullen struggled a bit more, but largely down to just being overrun in midfield. Really needed an extra body in there. Early for him, but someone like Lawal would have been ideal as an extra 6 in there.
Ronnie Whelan making the point that the Irish players just couldn't wait to go on their holidays after a long season and weren't really that bothered. Makes one wonder what the point is of playing these end-of-season friendlies at all.
I don't think it matters much whether O'Shea or someone else takes charge. This is the dullest, most uncharismatic, most unexciting bunch of players I've ever seen play for Ireland. (And I saw my first game in 1971). We're going nowhere with this lot.
I don't really think anybody thinks that a new manager can fix what is a multi-level cancer within the Irish football structure. Although, there are those who come out of the woodwork after bad results to offer nonsense like an Irish team in the EPL, an Atlantic league, All-Ireland legue, etc, so maybe there are others whose views on what a senior team manager can achieve are equally deluded.
But what a senior team manager can do is get the most out of the players at their disposal (while hopefully those in the background go about reforms that improve the quality and quantity of players at their disposal).
O' Shea, like Kenny before him, does not demonstrate any ability whatsoever to do that with the players at his disposal. We're bad, but we shouldn't be as bad as we've looked against teams like Armenia and Luxembourg.
Tbh, I don't like reading things into friendlies, as the result can often be less important than in competitive games, while other things come to the fore such as trying new players. Last night we were just dismissed with ease by a top quality team in tournament form. It bothers me much less than some of the catastrophic competitive outings under Kenny.
I’m not having a go at the personnel as much as the tactics.
Reminds me of Keith Andrews talking about playing Spain in 2012. ‘It was me and Whelo against Iniesta, Alonso and Xavi’
Folding my way into the big money!!!
I know im boring everyone to death with Collins in midfield, but its worth noting that Bradley played in midfield for NI last night
It was v Andorra, but that's the type of game where you try things. it worked a dream last night for the north
We have a CB pairing and GK valued at or rumoured to be valued at 20m each (Kelleher, O'Brien, Collins) and a CF valued at over 50m (Ferguson) and yet we look like a minnow... that alone should tell you all you need to know about how appalling a job Kenny & O'Shea have done as Irish manager.
I notice alot of people are trying to deflect as much as possible but for once can we stop making excuses for the manager and actually call them out of the terrible job they've done?
We had a worse team on paper in 2016 & 2018 (no-one in goal on par with Kelleher/Bazunu, no-one at CB on par with Collins and no-one upfront on par with Ferguson) and were competitive in qualifying yet now we are not only not qualifying but not even coming remotely close. Obviously we need to keep expectations in check but considering the 2016/2018 sides were able to qualify and come close to qualifying surely expecting this side to be moderately competitive isn't setting the bar that high.
Focusing on last night. O'Shea set up with just the 2 lads in midfield was ridiculous. What planet did he think that would work. I'm not saying 4-5-1 would have worked, but we would given them something to think about.
I can't stand this 3 at the back with the wing backs. We don't have the players for it. It actually puts more pressure on Cullen and Smallborne.
We had 3 up front lady night! I mean this is why we need a Steve Bruce or a Hughton or even a big Sam. We need an experienced professional football manager. Any who suggests O Shea always says "just" give it to him
We deserve better then "just". We are brilliant fans and we want a pro leading our team
When you don't have quality midfielders ~ The default formation should always be 4-5-1 to try to get over that lack of quality midfielders ~ Any what-ever the formation, if you lack quality midfielders, you are going to have to try to make up for that by having as many players in midfield as possible
~ ~ This is my application for the Irish managers job ~ ~
I might even get it !
There is definitely still a lot of deflection going on. Same as during the Kenny era. Except with people criticizing O'Shea now being labeled as die hard Kenny supporters or something like that. As well as that I've never seen as much of an outpouring in the media in favour of someone getting the job who is so clearly nowhere near good enough. A lot of ex players massively letting themselves down on TV and in print media. And all because of a vacuum from Canham that should have been dealt with months ago. It's just a total mess.
The only possible positive is that O'Shea has been so bad that he has made himself more or less unemployable without turning Canham into an even bigger joke figure than he already is. But if the result of that is that we end up stuck with someone like Anthony Hudson the outcome will be no better.
I do think we need a "back to basics" manager at this point. Plenty of them out there but finances remain the sticking point, in addition to the obvious inability of Canham to do his job.
I generally wouldn't advocate for a 5 at the back, but this was a night for 5-3-2. With Cheo injured (and McAteer, Connolly, Ebosele, Harness etc etc - either not selected or injured), we just don't have the wingers in the squad to play anything other than 5 at the back.
A 4-5-1 probably looks like this:
Kelleher
SC/MD O'Shea O'Brien Brady
Smallbone Cullen Knight
O'Dowda Johnston
Idah
5-3-2 would probably have been fine for that game if we'd actually played 5-3-2. 5-2-3 or 3-4-3 or whatever it was that O'Shea had them playing was absolutely ridiculous for that fixture.
Any realistic four at the back setup that Ireland play is going to need to involve at least one centre back playing full back - likely either Scales or O'Shea at left back. Of course one of these last four games could have been ideal to try something like that out, but the chance was wasted as O'Shea decided to turn it into a personal job audition instead.
Last edited by Eirambler; 12/06/2024 at 3:24 PM.
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