Will Smallbone M Millwall (loan from Southampton) b.2000

**Razors left peg** · 29/05/2024, 3:30 PM

Ok I see my overall point has been lost here. It's not that Galatasary would be the perfect move and I'm advocating that he should go there as 1st choice. The point I was trying to make is that we are still far too focused on English football and that I think some people are too dismissive of other leagues. I've also made this point on other threads so I don't want to be too repetitive. The Idah thread is good example, talk of comparing the standard to English football, and not looking at the experience Idah got from the atmosphere of those Old Firm games and cup final. You don't get atmosphere and pressure like that at Middlesboro vs Coventry.

Jake O'Brien similarly, the atmosphere at some of those Lyon games is incredible. English football has become pretty soul less in many ways. Many leagues across Europe have fans that live their entire life around football. My family in Portugal for example are Sporting fans from grandmother through all the cousins and kids, it's the main topic of conversation around every get together. And that's the norm there, most families are the exact same. I don't think that's really the same throughout the Premiership for example. There's videos going around Social media this week comparing the Man City fans celebrations to the Ajax fans.

It does seem to be happening that more of our players are going to Europe for football and I think the experiences they gain from that will benefit us. We as a fan base need to stop trying to figure out if Excelsior could be L1 or Championship

**Stuttgart88** · 29/05/2024, 4:12 PM

It'd be great if O'Brien opened foreign scouts to the possibilities of signing more Irish. But I think the ownership links between Palace and Lyon made that move possible rather than creative scouting.

**Razors left peg** · 29/05/2024, 4:51 PM

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

It'd be great if O'Brien opened foreign scouts to the possibilities of signing more Irish. But I think the ownership links between Palace and Lyon made that move possible rather than creative scouting.

Troy to Excelsior. All the younger lads that have gone to Italy. I see today the younger Umeh brother linked to Benfica again... it's changing slowly and my point again, is simply that we as fans need to do a better job at embracing that instead of seeing everything through the prizm of English football

**pineapple stu** · 29/05/2024, 5:34 PM

In fairness, for Parrott (and Idah) the move abroad made sense because they didn't make any impact at Championship level. It's a very tough, competitive league. For those two guys, they've certainly dropped a level in terms of the lower end of who they're playing while also giving them a few big games, and it seems to have helped them get some confidence back.

That doesn't mean it's a model for all - Sammie for example has had an exceptional Championship season and it makes every sense to look to the Premier rather than moving abroad (and then case against a move to Turkey has been well made by others)

Then there's the likes of Zefi, Nolan, Abankwah and Johanssen, who haven't gained anything by playing abroad. Or Heffernan and Ryan who moved abroad but then signed for an English team. It's a mixed bag. No different to football as a career in general. And I think it's been shown that younger players benefit from playing at home until 21/22 sort of age, so we're always playing catch-up there given the state of the LoI.

I wouldn't use atmosphere to judge leagues btw. Yeah, the top games in Scotland and Holland and Portugal can have huge crowds and special atmospheres. Then for the next couple of months you could playing in front of crowds under 10k.

**Razors left peg** · 29/05/2024, 6:27 PM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I wouldn't use atmosphere to judge leagues btw. Yeah, the top games in Scotland and Holland and Portugal can have huge crowds and special atmospheres. Then for the next couple of months you could playing in front of crowds under 10k.

Most of those 10k crowds would probably have a bigger noise than 80k in Old Trafford these days, or the mausoleum that is the City of Manchester stadium. Or maybe the 11K at Bournemouth or Luton games would be better? Ever watch QPR, Blackburn, Rotherham and some others in Championship who often have half empty stadiums?

As I said, its also not just about the games themselves, its about how everyone in a lot of these countries live for football every single day. That brings a completely different pressure

**Stuttgart88** · 29/05/2024, 7:26 PM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

In fairness, for Parrott (and Idah) the move abroad made sense because they didn't make any impact at Championship level. It's a very tough, competitive league. For those two guys, they've certainly dropped a level in terms of the lower end of who they're playing while also giving them a few big games, and it seems to have helped them get some confidence back.

That doesn't mean it's a model for all - Sammie for example has had an exceptional Championship season and it makes every sense to look to the Premier rather than moving abroad (and then case against a move to Turkey has been well made by others)

Then there's the likes of Zefi, Nolan, Abankwah and Johanssen, who haven't gained anything by playing abroad. Or Heffernan and Ryan who moved abroad but then signed for an English team. It's a mixed bag. No different to football as a career in general. And I think it's been shown that younger players benefit from playing at home until 21/22 sort of age, so we're always playing catch-up there given the state of the LoI.

I wouldn't use atmosphere to judge leagues btw. Yeah, the top games in Scotland and Holland and Portugal can have huge crowds and special atmospheres. Then for the next couple of months you could playing in front of crowds under 10k.

the key point is that they�re leagues that are good enough to supply international teams better than ours with starters so we shouldn�t sneer at them. Pro football is a tough career to break into. We should be celebrating successes rather than trying to qualify them with ifs and buts.

Thete�s no one route to fulfilling your potential but there has been one consistent route taken by our players for the last 50 years, England, and surely the evidence is that it yields mixed results. When I see tier 2 and 3 opponents� line ups and see the variation the players� clubs and countries it poses obvious questions in my mind.

**Eirambler** · 30/05/2024, 9:08 AM

There's benefits to playing further abroad than England, but it's far too easy to just take that to mean that anywhere else is better than England. Which certainly isn't true in the case of Turkey.

**pineapple stu** · 30/05/2024, 9:09 AM

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

the key point is that they�re leagues that are good enough to supply international teams better than ours with starters so we shouldn�t sneer at them.

I don't think anyone's really sneering at them in fairness. I do see a bit of a bias on here at times towards foreign leagues - this idea that someone would be better suited to the style in Italy/Holland/Spain/wherever. I don't really buy into that. Partly multiculturalism has paradoxically destroyed an awful lot of the differences between leagues so they're increasingly much of a muchness, and partly because while Parrott/Idah have done well with a change of scenery, that reflects the fact they couldn't really cut it at Championship level. That doesn't change the point that for those guys, a complete change of scenery was a very good option of course. Scotland and Holland have given weaker teams to play against, and some big games to play in too; it's been a good fit. But someone like Szmodics who's flying up the ranks would, I think, be better off moving up a division in the natural way of things than moving to the other end of the continent, to a new culture which may take time to adapt to.

Yes, moving to England has mixed success. I don't think that's an inherent weakness with English clubs as an option. I think it's more because football has mixed success, and also because of the huge weaknesses in the Irish game - players move across far too young and as youth prospects rather than genuine first-team players, and that naturally leads to mixed results. But players moving to Italy/Spain have had mixed success too.

The Championship is a very good league. The Premier is a big step up and is the best in the world. I've no problems with our players aspiring to play in it. One of the easiest ways to do that is to play in the division below it and get promoted.

Originally Posted by Razors left peg

Most of those 10k crowds would probably have a bigger noise than 80k in Old Trafford these days, or the mausoleum that is the City of Manchester stadium.

Maybe, but even then, so what? It's a nice experience, sure, but if it's a poor league then it's still a poor league. Tallaght might have a better atmostphere than Old Trafford; doesn't mean we'd want our players to go on loan to Rovers.

Obviously it depends on a player's career stage. For some it'll be a good stepping stone, for others (P�draig Amond for example) playing in the lower echelons of Portugal was just his level, like the English fourth tier subsequently was.

**Stuttgart88** · 30/05/2024, 1:27 PM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I don't think anyone's really sneering at them in fairness. I do see a bit of a bias on here at times towards foreign leagues - this idea that someone would be better suited to the style in Italy/Holland/Spain/wherever. I don't really buy into that.

Ah I think there really has been sneering and I think there has been a bias towards England where results have been mixed (for whatever reason) against a move abroad where the sample size is too small to form judgment yet. And of course the way we produce and export players is a problem, but I think there's merit in at least suggesting that other leagues are an undertested option for our players and of being suspicious that English football mightn't be (and historically mightn't have been) the best option for many of our players.

I'd love to hear what players from other tier 2 / tier 3 countries who have been successful outside of home countries and UK say.

Only time will tell of course.

**Razors left peg** · 30/05/2024, 5:15 PM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I don't think anyone's really sneering at them in fairness. I do see a bit of a bias on here at times towards foreign leagues - this idea that someone would be better suited to the style in Italy/Holland/Spain/wherever. I don't really buy into that. Partly multiculturalism has paradoxically destroyed an awful lot of the differences between leagues so they're increasingly much of a muchness, and partly because while Parrott/Idah have done well with a change of scenery, that reflects the fact they couldn't really cut it at Championship level. That doesn't change the point that for those guys, a complete change of scenery was a very good option of course. Scotland and Holland have given weaker teams to play against, and some big games to play in too; it's been a good fit. But someone like Szmodics who's flying up the ranks would, I think, be better off moving up a division in the natural way of things than moving to the other end of the continent, to a new culture which may take time to adapt to.

You realize of course that England is also a foreign league? To say there is not much of a difference between how football is played in different leagues across Europe shows that its pretty pointless discussing this further, an understanding of the subject matter is important.

**pineapple stu** · 30/05/2024, 7:12 PM

Originally Posted by Razors left peg

You realize of course that England is also a foreign league?

Yes - fairly clear I was talking about continental clubs as opposed to English clubs. Hence "Italy/Holland/Spain/wherever"

Originally Posted by Razors left peg

To say there is not much of a difference between how football is played in different leagues across Europe shows that its pretty pointless discussing this further, an understanding of the subject matter is important.

There's increasingly less and less difference. That undeniable.

**Razors left peg** · 30/05/2024, 7:43 PM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Yes - fairly clear I was talking about continental clubs as opposed to English clubs. Hence "Italy/Holland/Spain/wherever"

There's increasingly less and less difference. That undeniable.

It's quite denialable in fact

**John83** · 31/05/2024, 3:55 AM

Style and coaching techniques have homogonised substantially. The days of Arsene Wenger bringing arcane knowledge of not eating too many kebabs from the continent are gone. The main difference now is that Irish people tend to emigrate within the anglosphere.

**pineapple stu** · 31/05/2024, 7:05 AM

Originally Posted by John83

Style and coaching techniques have homogonised substantially.

And really, how could that not be the case when you look at the likes of Guardiola, Mourinho, Benitez, Pochettino, etc, jumping from one top league to another with regularity, coaching squads where usually a significant majority of players aren't from the club's/league's country, and working off the same match data (possibly even the same apps) as in other leagues too?