Next Senior Men's Team Manager - Runners and Riders

[ifk101]

And which is also why I would prefer if you confined your comments to the matters under discussion, rather than trying to personalise them with sarcastic digs at me, esp when you clearly know bugger-all about me.

Oh dear. Your knowledge of Brentford is unquestioned (you could write the Wikipedia page – a compliment not a dig, whatever) but Brentford was a short scratch on Carsley post playing career eight years ago. That Brentford wanted Carsley eight years ago doesn’t say much today regardless of how well Brentford is run as a club. When asked to explain why Carsley is so well-respected you gave a short generic and sneering “you know management stuff” reply, and proceeded to roll out the “if he was good enough for Brentford” text, throwing out those links as a google search afterthought (none of which referred to his time with Brentford which is the basis to you having no doubts about his managerial abilities?). Given the sensitivities, I’ll leave it there – my posts are merely those of a fan with a vested interest in the team wanting the best candidate to get the role.

Btw Dijkhuizen has moved on to greater things post-Brentford. He’s currently managing our Troy.

[Jolly Red Giant]

not really true at all...

Trafford - a loan season at league 1, now a prem player
Griifiths - first half of the season at league 1, second half playing championship
Rushworth - a loan season at league 1, now a championship loan


Aarons - previous season was in the champ but had played 70 PL games and is back there now
Johnson - had played 55 PL games and won west ham’s young player of the year two years in a row


Colwill - starter for Brighton last season, now a starter for Chelsea
Harwood-Bellis - a series of championship loans, promoted with Burnley before the 21s tournament
Branthwaite - now a premier league regular, was on loan at PSV that season
Cresswell - on loan in the champ.


Thomas - had played 17 PL games that season and 56 in total, got relegated and is now in champ


Skipp - 79 games for Spurs under his belt at the time of the tournament
Doyle - on loan with promoted Sheffield United last season, on loan at Wolves this season
Ramsey - played 35 of 38 PL games in the season before the tournament. Has played 93 PL games
Garner - 16 PL games in the season but he missed November - April due to injury and then played all the last 10 games of the season. Now a regular.


Gibbs white - played 37 of 38 prem games in the season before the tournament. Has played 96 PL games
Smith Rowe - has played over 100 games for Arsenal, full England international
Jones - has played over 100 games for Liverpool
Palmer - Chelsea paid £40+m for him straight after the tournament - played 41 games for city before the move


Gordon - 81 prem games at the time of tournament
Elliott - played 46 games for Liverpool in the season before the tournament, has 56 premier league appearances under his belt but would be more if the horror injury hadn’t happened
Gomes - a regular for one of the better ligue 1 teams
Madueke - first half of the season with PSV before Chelsea bought him for €33m. Played a bit for Chelsea in the rest of the season


Archer - scored 11 in 20 last season for Boro in the championship. Now a first choice PL player.

Let's have a few corrections - note - you said - The England U21s is full of players who are regulars in the PL. The team that won the Euros would play our senior team off the park week in week out.

Trafford played in League 1 last season - he is currently conceding an average of more than 2 goals a game with Burnley.

Aarons has been repeatedly tipped over the past three years for a transfer to a PL club - yet no one has bought him until Bournemouth paid £7m for him in August - he is not a regular at Bournemouth

Johnson hasn't played for West Ham this season

Colwill was not a starter for Brighton last season - he started 13 games and was a sub in four others.

Harwood-Bellis is playing for Southampton in the Championship - he has never played a PL game

Thomas has never been a starter for Leicester in the PL

Skipp - never a regular starter for Spurs

Doyle - not a regular for Wolves

Ramsey was a regular for the past two seasons - is not this season (in part because of an early season injury)

Smith Rowe - not playing for Arsenal this season (again in part because of injury)

Jones - not a regular for Liverpool

Palmer - not a regular until the Chelsea move

Elliot - getting there - but not a starter for Liverpool

Gomes - The French L1 is nowhere near the standard of the PL

Madueke - not a regular starter

Archer - has played 8 games for Sheff Utd - he is not a first choice PL player and he plays for the worst team in the PL.

Furthermore - I argued that the starting team that won the U21 Euros for England had only one regular PL starter at the time ( I will admit to an error - there were two - Gordon and Gibbs-White).

The team - Trafford - Garner - Colwill - Harwood-Bellis - Aarons - Smith-Rowe - Gomes - Gibbs-White - Jones - Palmer - and Gordon.

Now - I would also argue that this team that won the Euros would not play the Irish team off the park - I think it would be a pretty even game with Ireland winning narrowly. Why - because Ireland have a lot more experience. Give it a year or two and you could have a valid argument - but Ireland are also likely to be a much better team in a year or two now that Kenny is gone.

[Jolly Red Giant]

if you were picking a combined team, we could realistically have starters in goal (bit of a toss up between Trafford, Bazunu and Kelleher), at right back (toss up between Doherty, Coleman, Aarons and Johnson), centre back (it's probably Colwill and Branthwait but Collins is in the mix for the second slot) and Evan Ferguson starts up top. So they have 7 definite, we have 1 and then 3 50/50s

Both Bazunu and Kelleher are better than Trafford

Coleman is the better RB any day of the week

Branthwaithe didn't play in the final - and I would start both Egan and Collins ahead of him anyway

Now - midfield is our weakest position - but Gomes wouldn't start ahead of Cullen or Knight for me.

Ferguson is going to be a much better player than Palmer.

The English U21s do have something that the Irish team lack - real pace from several parts of the pitch - and in todays game pace is very important.

I would have 5 Irish players in a combined team. This is not to say that the English U21s isn't full of good players with a lot of potential - but some of them will fall by the wayside as with any underage team. Furthermore - the important point is that there were several other very good squads in the tournament. The Spanish squad had a whole bunch of players who were regular starter in La Liga and in the PL in Portugal.

[Jolly Red Giant]

No, it is true. Plus, I'm talking about the current squad and how they've played. We made NZ look like a top team and there's no guarantee that a new coach will come in miraculously change things. Kenny was out of his depth, but the players have been lucky he was so bad, as he has masked how utterly terrible they have performed. I don't care how bad you're set up, it's no excuse for how bad they've been in the majority of games. The majority of that team have gotten off lightly and some people will tell you that we have some sort of golden generation of young players that just need the correct manager to unlock their potential. We're very poor.

You cannot talk about the current squad when you have a manager who doesn't know what he was doing and the NZ manager ran rings around him tactically. The players have not been good under Kenny - but it is very hard to be good when your coach doesn't know what he is doing and the opposition coach can completely undermine Kenny in a tactical sense.

The current Irish squad and underage teams have the best potential of any since the Kerr underage teams with Keane, Duff and Dunne etc - the big question is how many will develop into quality players and can we have a coach who maximises their talents and make the team play better than the sum of its parts - not the opposite way around.

[elatedscum]

Let's have a few corrections - note - you said - The England U21s is full of players who are regulars in the PL. The team that won the Euros would play our senior team off the park week in week out.

wasn't me that said it. i was just responding to you saying "he team that won the U21 final only had one regular PL player (Gordon)".

I don't think there's much point going into detail about all players again, rebutting some of the things you've said - but just to give a few examples:

Colwill got two injuries last season. He started all 5 games before the second injury, then was injured the next 6 games. After that, they decided not to play him twice in a week - so he wouldn't relapse. So he started against Palace and Brentford, rested for the midweek game against Bournemouth, then played against Spurs that weekend and so on. He was used in every game except for a midweek one, between two games (and the chelsea game where he was ineligible). So you're correct that he only started 13 but by the end of the season, he was first choice and to give some context based on someone we both mentioned, Evan Ferguson only started 10 premier league games last season.

Similarly, you're both saying that players who became regulars this season don't count, while also counting out Ramsey for breaking his metatarsal in July and re-injuring it in October. Ramsey was clearly a regular premier league, while playing the tournament, prior to his injury. I think overall, you've got a very very narrow view of what a premier league regular is. To play devils advocate (I don't really believe this - but this is how you're looking at the england u21s):

Bazunu - championship keeper
Kelleher - 30 games in his career
Travers - found out at prem level

Coleman - hasn't played this season (due to injury but he's closer to 40 than 30 and the pace has gone)
Doherty - didn't play regularly for Spurs, Atletico or Wolves - clearly not your definition of a regular
Ebosele - As you said re Ligue 1, Serie A is a long way from PL

Egan - last two seasons in the championship, played only 5 prem games this season (due to injury) for the worst team in the league
Omobamidele - hasn't made it onto the pitch for Forest since he signed
O'Shea - championship player when the tournament began
Duffy - championship player
Collins - premier league player but he's been sold year after year, lost his place in the Wolves team to Dawson and they sold him for about the same price they paid for him

Manning - championship player with no pace
Scales - the SPL is so so far from Premier League level, it's closer to LOI than it is to PL

Cullen - championship player when the tournament began, already lost his place in a poor Burnley team
Molumby - average championship player
Browne - average championship player
Knight - championship player
Smallbone - championship player who has never really recovered that injury
Hendrick - can't get into a bad championship team
McGrath - again - the SPL is so so far from Premier League level, it's closer to LOI than it is to PL

Ogbene - only a premier league player this season
Johnston - can't get into an SPL team
Robinson - average championship player
Sykes - average championship player
Connolly - couldn't cut it in Serie A, struggling in the championship

Ferguson - only started 10 premier league games last season
Obafemi - injury prone championship player with attitude problems
Parrott - couldn't cut it in the championship
Idah - 6 league goals in the 4 seasons before the the tournament

[Olé Olé]

Funny old post to see on an Irish football forum. Not everything has to be positive on here but going down through our entire squad with the clear intention of cutting them down is pretty mad and feels a little pointless.

[pineapple stu]

Not sure there's much to hugely disagree with there though (except that it was Serie B Connolly was turfed out of, not Serie A)

Bit of realism is no harm here every now and again. Plus there's the caveat "I don't really believe this - but this is how you're looking at the england u21s"

[Eirambler]

You can find something negative to say about every player in world football if you want to. Not sure it always adds up to a very strong argument though.

[jbyrne]

two decent friendlies for the manager to start off with anyway...
https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2023...land-in-march/

[Eirambler]

Looks like we've moved away from the "find the opposition even Stephen Kenny can't lose to" approach to friendlies of previous years, expectations must be higher for the new man.

Will be tough going seeing as we apparently have the worst squad in the history of world football according to one or two on here!

[pineapple stu]

Will be tough going seeing as we apparently have the worst squad in the history of world football according to one or two on here!

I don't think anyone has remotely suggested anything of the sort in fairness.

These two games will be interesting though to see what sort of uplift we can get. Presume it's Belgium A this time rather than Belgium B?

[LurcherLover]

Will be tough going seeing as we apparently have the worst squad in the history of world football according to one or two on here!

That's a bit rough, who said that? Sounds like something a 12yo would say when they hear any criticism of their team.

[JR89]

I don't think anyone has remotely suggested anything of the sort in fairness.

These two games will be interesting though to see what sort of uplift we can get. Presume it's Belgium A this time rather than Belgium B?

An away game a couple of months out from the Euros I'd say they'll be sending out the B team. What was it last time lads with under 50 caps were selected.

[pineapple stu]

What was it last time lads with under 50 caps were selected.

Yep. It meant they left out around 11 players I think. If we did the same, it'd mean leaving out McClean, Duffy, Brady, Hendrick and Coleman.

Take that, Belgium!

[seanfhear]

One interesting thing that could come in to the picture if Carsley does get the Irish job ~ ~ Is that Carsley will have extensive knowledge about so many good young players in England ( maybe even a few other places ) ~ ~ Some of these may have dual eligibility and may be that bit more inclined to play for us, if they already have had some interaction with Carsley.

If Carsley could get a few decent players to declare for us that would be a big bonus point !

[Razors left peg]

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2023...he-green-line/

This article from RTE is primarily about Gleeson being appointed womens head coach, but theres enough in there from Marc Canham that shows that the appointment for the men wont be a Sam Allardyce type.

"He doesn't want the senior team - or any team - to be out of sync with what's going on within the rest of the international infrastructure. Everybody must be on the same wavelength. It was a source of friction with Vera Pauw, who refused to change her approach to elements of training - strength and conditioning in particular."

[Jolly Red Giant]

wasn't me that said it. i was just responding to you saying "he team that won the U21 final only had one regular PL player (Gordon)".

I don't think there's much point going into detail about all players again, rebutting some of the things you've said - but just to give a few examples:

Am I arguing about what standard the Irish team are playing at ?

I will point out the following -

Bazunu - 21 years old
Kelleher - 25
Travers - 24 (a good Championship level keeper which is better than most of what we have had for the past 100 years)
O'Shea - 24
Collins - 22
O'Brien - 22 (who should be in the squad)
Omobamidele - 21
Ebosele - 21
Knight - 22
Molumby - 24
Smallbone - 23
Moran - 20
Azaz - 23 (who should be in the squad)
Idah - 22 (and a better player than his goals reflect)
Parrott - 21
Ferguson - 19
Johnston - 24 (and he has started the last 4 games for Celtic)
Connolly - 23
Armstrong - 20
Obafemi - 23 (yes he is injury prone - and we don't know the 'attitude problems')
Cannon - 20 (if he ends up with us)

And with the U21s etc
Aselmo - 20
Lawal - 20
Springett - 21
Gilsenan - 20
Vata - 18
Vaughan - 19
Heffernan - 18
O'Mahony - 18
TKD - 17
Murphy - 19
Fraser - 18
JJP Finn - 20

We have a very young squad - and they have a lot of potential - whether that potential will be achieved only time will tell. Having an international manager who knows what they are doing will help. And if 1 out of 3 of the underage kids achieve their potential as well we will have a strong squad.

[Olé Olé]

Not sure there's much to hugely disagree with there though (except that it was Serie B Connolly was turfed out of, not Serie A)

Bit of realism is no harm here every now and again. Plus there's the caveat "I don't really believe this - but this is how you're looking at the england u21s"

I think this is very interesting.

You manage to find fault with the first part of this. No view to share on the second part?

"Connolly - couldn't cut it in Serie A, struggling in the championship"

I don't think he has struggled in the Championship. Do you?

[Jolly Red Giant]

wasn't me that said it. i was just responding to you saying "he team that won the U21 final only had one regular PL player (Gordon)".

I don't think there's much point going into detail about all players again, rebutting some of the things you've said - but just to give a few examples:

I will also look at an example from history - 1973 to be exact

These were the players who played for Ireland in 1973 (i.e. not the squad - but who were actually capped)

Alan Kelly – 37 years old - Preston – Div 2
Peter Thomas – 29 - Waterford
Mick Kearns – 23 - Walsall – Div 3
Paddy Mulligan – 28 – Palace – Div 2
Jimmy Holmes – 20 – Coventry – Div 1
Tommy Carroll – 31 – Shelbourne
Eoin Hand – 27 – Portsmouth – Div 2
Tony Byrne – 27 – Southampton – Div 1
Tommy McConville – 27 – Shamrock Rovers
Terry Mancini – 31 – QPR – Div 1
Joe Kinnear – 27 – Spurs – Div 1
John Herrick – 27 – Cork Hibs
Mick Martin – 22 – Man U – Div 1
Miah Dennehy – 23 – Forest – Div 2
Gerry Daly – 19 – Man U – Div 1
Johnny Giles – 33 – Leeds – Div 1
Mick Lawlor – 24 – Shamrock Rovers
Turlough O’Connor – 27 – Bohs
Don Givens – 24 – QPR – Div 1
Ray Treacy – 27 – Preston – Div 2
Terry Conroy – 27 – Stoke – Div 1
Alfie Hale – 34 – Waterford
Damien Richardson – 26 – Gillingham – Div 3

Many of these players were not regular starters for their teams (e.g. Terry Conroy - he was used almost exclusively as a sub) - and most of them would be playing a division lower today than they were then because there were practically no foreign players in England at the time.

Between 1967-1972 Ireland didn't win a single game P 19 - W 0 - D 5 - L 14

With mostly the same players as in the previous 3/4 seasons the team in 1973 achieved the following results.

WC qual - 2-1 France home (actually played in late Nov 1972 - but with the same squad of players)
WC qual - 0-1 USSR away
Friendly - 0-2 Poland away
WC qual - 1-1 France away
Friendly - 1-1 Norway away
Friendly - 1-0 Poland home

This was a relatively experienced squad with only a handful of players under 25 - but I would argue that the current squad is playing at a higher level of competition than that 1973 squad. The big difference is that results were achieved by the 1973 squad - they played better than the sum of their parts - and that was down to the manager Liam Touhy who was appointed in 1972 (Sean Thomas was interim manager for the Norway game after Touhy was screwed by the FAI - and Giles was appointed manager before the Poland game but it was still Touhy's approach that was used).

If you get a good coach then you get a team that will play better than the sum of its parts - for the past four years Kenny was succeeding in doing the exact opposite. We have no idea how well this team can actually play as an international team because they never have had a coach who knows what he is doing at international level. Hopefully the next one will know what they are up to.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Looks like we've moved away from the "find the opposition even Stephen Kenny can't lose to" approach to friendlies of previous years, expectations must be higher for the new man.

Will be tough going seeing as we apparently have the worst squad in the history of world football according to one or two on here!

Many of the teams who qualified are looking for strong friendlies before the tournament - and they tend to put out strong teams