Thats actually a decent idea that had never crossed my mind but you could also make it part of the World Cup itself. The fourth and fifth placed teams could go through to a knock out competition with the winner to play the winner of a knock out competition for the third placed teams...
Gibraltar v Stephen Kenny's Ireland 2 days after Ireland v NZ in a WC QF...
It might be the death of Irish football forever!
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...-at-world-cupsOriginally Posted by SkStu
The 2nd tier competition is a good idea, but we wont have any Portugal rugby slander around here!!!
You picked a bad example though, Im assuming you meant by expanding the tournament you'll have teams that didnt even qualify for this tournament, NZ vs Spain might have been a better example.
I agree that there are too many one sided games in this tournament but seeing what Portugal did does give a little hope for the expansion of the game. If you go back to the 1995 WC New Zealand beat Japan 145-17. Many then would be questioning why Japan are there, but they have managed to grow the game very well since. It is annoying though that out side of the 6 Nations and the Rugby Championship theres not much of an outlet for other nations in the intervening years of the World Cup.
Japan, Fiji, Samoa, Tonga, Georgia, Portugal, Uruguay, Namibia etc will only be seen, outside of the rugby diehards, in the odd November friendly or something between now and the next WC. There has to be a better way
Its really not that complicated!!!
But they haven’t heard my idea yet!!
Several years ago (2014 I think), a couple of years after after I had finished studying sports management at Birkbeck Uni in London I gave a lecture warning of future financial meltdown in English rugby and how rugby’s global institutional framework wasn’t robust enough to cope with financial growth in the game amidst threats from English clubs to break away from the Heineken Cup. Jeff Probyn and Hugh Godwin (Independent on Sunday rugby correspondent) were panellists in a panel discussion we had afterwards).
I argued that Europe needed a NFL style European league with strict financial supervision and revenue sharing AND a downstream tax to smaller countries to keep all parties happy. I said that rugby didn’t have the 100+ years of professional club structures that formed football’s traditions and structures and that by and large, I feel should be kept. I argued that rugby needed a strong World Rugby which delegated regional organisation to organisations like Rugby Europe (then FIRA-AER) the same way as we have FIFA and UEFA etc. Imho World Rugby is asleep at the wheel and letting private equity (CVC and others) run all over the game, bringing South African rugby into Europe etc.
I then compared FIRA-AER to UEFA. Whatever about personalities, I think UEFA is largely a good organisation. It organises and regulates football and redistributes income downwards. It (just about) prevents the elite clubs from running the game solely for their own benefit, though that job is becoming harder. It has engaged the EU and largely has its support in running what in any other industry would be deemed a cartel. Both UEFA and Rugby Europe have a key objective “to promote and safeguard the game…” as you’d expect.
From Rugby Europe’s bylaws:
https://www.rugbyeurope.eu/media/ezn...-veng-2022.pdf
2.4.1. Rugby Europe’s mission is to administer, manage, promote and develop the Game in Europe and in certain countries outside Europe that are connected to this Regional Association by a World Rugby decision, but without intervening in the domestic affairs of its Members save where Rugby Europe is requested to do so either by World Rugby or by the concerned Member.
So very much like UEFA and pretty much any national or continental sports federation.
But look at article 2.9 of Rugby Europe’s statutes:
2.9. Recognition of the 6 Nations
Rugby Europe recognizes the existence of the sporting, commercial and professional structures put in place by FFR (French Rugby Federation), FIR (Italian Rugby Federation), IRFU (Irish Rugby Football Union), RFU (Rugby Football Union), SRU (Scottish Rugby Union) and WRU (Welsh Rugby Union), generally known as the “Six Nations”. Rugby Europe recognizes the right of these Unions, whether individually or collectively, to operate and commercialize competitions, tournaments, and other matches between their representatives’ national or Club teams. Consequently, Rugby Europe shall have no responsibility or jurisdiction over the competitions, tournaments or matches organized by these bodies. Rugby Europe will preserve, maintain respect, and develop its relations with these structures in a spirit of cooperation.
So basically the 6N can organise themselves and their own competitions, decide who they play and keep all the money for themselves!
As Michael Aylwin wrote in Unholy Union the 6 Nations can do what it wants, it only does what’s in its own interests and “it’s a mean motherfupper”. Great book by the way. I read it in 2-3 sittings.
Don’t expect much generosity towards the Tier 2 nations after the warm glow of the RWC fades.
Last edited by Stuttgart88; 09/10/2023 at 4:26 PM.
The 6 rich rugby nations can basically buy whatever player they want for their international team by giving them a contract. No matter where in the world they're from. The rich rugby nations will only get richer. It's an absolute joke and totally makes a farce of the 'international' but of 'international rugby'.
As much as I admire Aki, Gibson-Park and Lowe (and CJ Stander before them), the truth is, if they were signed by Glasgow they'd be playing for Scotland in this World Cup.
The likes of Portugal, Romania, Georgia etc will never be able to compete
Folding my way into the big money!!!
When it was a 3 year residency rule to qualify for the nation team that was ridiculous
But it's 5 years now just like football Deco hadn't a drop of Portuguese blood and Costa hadn't any Spanish in him.
Were you are right is world rugby are ****s two tier 2 nations. No financing no proper fixture schedule etc
I think we’ve taken advantage of our small size to very good effect.
France and England have large dispersed rugby club populations
=>following a model similar to football’s kind of makes sense (national leagues, professional clubs representing towns or cities, national TV deals)
Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Italy could never follow such a model and compete in the H-Cup
• Our clubs are too small and local populations are too small
• Our domestic TV audiences are too small
=>Solution is to have regional representative teams
• Cross border leagues
• Cross border TV income
Within the structure we adopted we became quite ruthless
• Leinster clearly top dog and IRFU focuses most resources here
• Iron grip on retaining best players domestically and offers central contracts
=> our ”clubs” remain solvent
• We brought in SA teams, and TV money (and CVC’s PE money)
England copied the EPL’s model too closely
• Spiv owners
• Lack of financial control
• Lack of central contracts for better players
• Clubs insolvent
• Union itself badly run, and barely solvent
I'm not sure about France’s solvency position!
Is the above a fair synopsis?
What model could England adopt?
• Clubs as they are (rather than regions)
• No promotion & relegation
• Central contracts for top [40] players to alleviate burden on clubs
• Tighter financial control
• Bring in Welsh & other clubs?
For me our biggest advantage is we are guaranteed major TV money from 3 competitions: 6N, H-Cup URC which we use in an almost communist style model of centralised control.
I'm almost surprised that France and England agree to try to compete with us on this basis in the H-Cup. I also wonder about the enforceability under EU law of the policy that stops players moving abroad.
Last edited by Stuttgart88; 10/10/2023 at 1:59 PM.
Players aren't really stopped from playing abroad, they're just heavily disincentivised to do so. It'll basically mean the end of your international career.
Zebo didn't get a look in when he was at Racing, and we really needed a pacy full back. Madigan was seen as the long term replacement for Sexton until he returned from France*, so he had to go to Bordeaux for gametime. JJ Hanrahan was likewise marked as a long term prospect at ten, I don't think he earned a cap during his time at Northampton - although he was injured a lot while he was there.
Sexton is the exception to the rule, he was still a team regular during his time at Racing
Incidentally, Wales have recently reduced the cap limit on players who want to move abroad, I think it's a 25 cap minimum, while playing in Wales, if you want to continue your international career while abroad
* my own hot take on Sexton's return was that it was bad in the long term for rugby, it meant Madigan spent a year of his career sitting on the bench and he's never returned to the same heights. On the other hand, Sexton is about to captain his country in the World Cup quarter final
But given that that's the pinnacle of your sport and presents additional financial opportunity, that's pretty much the same as being prevented from moving abroad!
I don't agree. I've never bought into that "building for the future" argument. If you have a world class talent you pick him! You don't drop Luca Modric in favour of a 20-something year old who needs to develop. As you say we have a WC QF at the weekend. It'd be a disaster if Sexton was unavailable.
it's Sexton coming back that was bad, not Madigan getting dropped after he came back. If Sexton stayed where he was, he would have to be continued to be picked for Ireland, and Madigan would have developed his game further over those 12 months. We still don't really have a reliable backup for Sexton.
The IRFU showed their hypocrisy by picking Sexton while he was abroad.
They stubbornly refused to pick Trevor Brennan while he was winning European Cups at Toulouse and Zebo when we could have really used him.
Zebo made a financial decision for his family. Couldn't begrudge him that.
Folding my way into the big money!!!
Zebo also spoke french, his father was Martinique-French, half of his family lives in france (Paris and Toulouse) and he'd always wanted to play there at some point in his career. Thought it was particularly **** from the IRFU in that context
Personally I think the IRFU have every right to do their best to keep players in Ireland. Their priority is the International teams and quite often players are not looked after at English and French clubs the way they would be in Ireland from a rest and time management point of view. Players might be able to extend their career a bit by staying in Ireland and not having the work load at other clubs and that could make up for a bit of the financial gain for going abroad. Zebo is only 33, could he be in better shape and still be playing for Ireland at this World Cup had he not gone to France? If he was still playing for Ireland for last few years he'd probably be on a lot more money than he was just playing for Munster.
It might be hypocritical to have picked Sexton when he went over to France when Zebo wasnt picked. But the IRFU made a business decision that Zebo could be replaced while Sexton couldnt be, turns out they were right. This is high level professional sport, they dont care, and shouldnt care, about hurting peoples feelings.
By forcing/incentivizing these players to stay in Ireland they have been successful in European Competitions with all 4 provinces. The interest levels in the game has grown enormously over the years, and a lot of that is to with fans being able to see their top end players at home, at club level, winning trophies. Could you imagine a scenario where football fans were able to go see Evan Ferguson competing in the Champions League for Bohs because he was given as good if not better coaching than he would abroad while also making similar money. It sounds far fetched, but thats exactly what the IRFU can offer.
Ive said before that I'd love to see Irish football go to a fully centralized system with fewer clubs in a well financed professional division. It would mean stepping on a lot of toes to get there but I think there are too many entrenched in their ways for us ever to get to a point where the LOI is a realistic option for our senior international players.
Its really not that complicated!!!
Brennan's son Daniel is a prop with Brive in the French Top 14(the second division), played for France in the U20 Six Nations, and won the U20 World Cup.
Hypocrisy or pragmatism?
Keith Andrews discusses his "work experience" with the IRFU.
Full article here: https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soc...sh-rugby-camp/
But this bit jumps out (emphasis mine):
“I’ve spent time with the IRFU and what they have done in terms of development of the provinces and schools is obviously very impressive,” said Andrews ahead of Friday’s European Championships qualifier against Greece at the Aviva Stadium.
“There are elements where we need to introduce that into our schools and be a bit more strategic around it. We have to align everybody at grassroots, which is very, very difficult in this country, and League of Ireland, and us.
“To bring that all in a straight line of where we want to go, which is ultimately to create the best possible players we can, to give them the game time, to give them the infrastructure, to give them the expertise of all the coaches that we are trying to develop, I think it all needs to come together. But what the rugby has produced over a sustained period of time and with the provinces in particular is very impressive.”
The FAI's failure to control the factions and vested interests in our schools game over the decades has had a disastrous effect. I don't really understand the politics of it but anyone I know close to the ground says the competing schoolboy factions are preventing progress. And wasn't there a massive debacle recently over school girls' clubs moving en masse from one league to another just before the start of the season?
Dreadful defeat last night will have knocked the stuffing out of some of the rugby element insisting that sorry is the biggest in the country. Watching it struck me that the team need to either get in a decent sports psychologist or replace the one they have, a lot of it was purely mental frailty.
Don’t agree that it had anything to do with mental frailty rather we were beaten by a better team on the night ( and with a bit of luck could easily of won) we were behind throughout the game but each time kept coming back and that actually demonstrated our mental toughness rather than fragility - rugby sadly in comparison to football in Ireland is in a great place at both club ( provinces) and international level with fantastic structures in place and will continue to kick on at all levels.
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