Serbia V Republic of Ireland - Wednesday, 24th March 2021 - World Cup 2022 Qualifier

[pineapple stu]

Equally though, Pineapple, me auld fruit, these youth players on the fringes at big clubs and not amounting to anything at all are hardly without example ? remember Richie Partridge at the very same club, darling of the reserves, bit of first team and then a plummet. The game is littered with them, and that key final part from best in development class to first team option, and then onto first team established player with international potential is one many do not make.

Absolutely. That's another reason I'd have Westwood (and Randolph) ahead of Kelleher at this stage - tried and trusted. Kelleher is closer to breaking through than Bazunu of course.

He persevered with Mignolet for years despite being nowhere near the required level. He then replaced him with Karius who arrived at Champions League final level, and cost them the game, never to be seen again.

Mignolet was "nowhere near the required level"? He only won 30 caps for one of the world's top international sides (who also had Courtois), was Sunderland's Player of the Year when in the Premier (much better than a third tier PotM award) and played 250+ Premier League games. Karius wasn't "never to be seen again"; he's actually being playing quite well at Besiktas for the past two years.

Given I'm suggesting the Liverpool second-choice is decent Championship level standard, then I think you're backing up my point here - which is Westwood > Kelleher >> Bazunu.

[DeLorean]

Absolutely. That's another reason I'd have Westwood (and Randolph) ahead of Kelleher at this stage - tried and trusted. Kelleher is closer to breaking through than Bazunu of course.


Mignolet was "nowhere near the required level"? He only won 30 caps for one of the world's top international sides (who also had Courtois), was Sunderland's Player of the Year when in the Premier (much better than a third tier PotM award) and played 250+ Premier League games. Karius wasn't "never to be seen again"; he's actually being playing quite well at Besiktas for the past two years.

Given I'm suggesting the Liverpool second-choice is decent Championship level standard, then I think you're backing up my point here - which is Westwood > Kelleher >> Bazunu.

No, Mignolet was a liability at Liverpool, and therefore nowhere near the level that they required. I think most of their fans would agree with this. It doesn't mean he's useless or hasn't had a decent career otherwise, just not good enough for a club of Liverpool's ambitions, ambitions they fulfilled after upgrading. Comparing the player of the year award at Sunderland to Bazunu's potm award might be relevant if I was claiming Bazuna > Mignolet!

Karius never played for Liverpool again after the Champions League disaster, obviously I didn't mean that he vanished off the face of the earth. He clearly wasn't as good as Klopp thought he was, is the point. If he's found 'his level' at Besiktas, good for him, but that's a hell of a drop for a guy in his prime years and one Klopp saw as his number one.

[CraftyToePoke]

Given I'm suggesting the Liverpool second-choice is decent Championship level standard, then I think you're backing up my point here - which is Westwood > Kelleher >> Bazunu.

But how can you attribute descending levels based upon present club / status - particularly regarding a player in development ?

Its speculation at best, Connolly couldn't score at Luton ( couldn't get in the side actually) but has at Brighton. Cassidy couldn't stop scoring at Watford U23 but is sinking without trace at L1 Accrington. Parrott is on a new long term deal at Spurs but really has it all to do. My point is these are players in development and if there turns out to be a big hole in their game, guess what, Championship clubs won't be after them either because they are aiming to win games too. Particularly re keepers.

On what are you basing this, genuinely interested ? The levels thing, because again as with bright young prospects vanishing, the game is littered again with players dropping Prem to Championship and finding out they actually aren't footballers at all beyond underage, which is a different world.

[pineapple stu]

But how can you attribute descending levels based upon present club / status - particularly regarding a player in development? It's speculation at best

Of course it's speculation. This is an internet forum after all. But I'm happy to trust Klopp's judgement in promoting Kelleher to number 2 ahead of Adrian (who has 100+ Premier League games and has been called up to the Spanish squad). Bazunu is just a promising academy player at the moment by contrast. So that's why I think Kelleher is closer to Westwood than to Bazunu. That's all.

I've often urged caution on here with regards young prospects because maybe half of what we think is a decent emerging generation simply isn't going to make it.

No, Mignolet was a liability at Liverpool, and therefore nowhere near the level that they required. I think most of their fans would agree with this. It doesn't mean he's useless or hasn't had a decent career otherwise, just not good enough for a club of Liverpool's ambitions, ambitions they fulfilled after upgrading. Comparing the player of the year award at Sunderland to Bazunu's potm award might be relevant if I was claiming Bazuna > Mignolet!

Karius never played for Liverpool again after the Champions League disaster, obviously I didn't mean that he vanished off the face of the earth. He clearly wasn't as good as Klopp thought he was, is the point. If he's found 'his level' at Besiktas, good for him, but that's a hell of a drop for a guy in his prime years and one Klopp saw as his number one.

Were they absolutely tip-top first choice keepers? Probably not. But I'm not talking about that - I'm talking about evaluating a second choice keeper, who doesn't need to be absolutely tip-top (indeed, couldn't be, because if he was, he wouldn't sit on the bench for you.)

So I'm comparing Kelleher as reserve to Karius/Mignolet as reserve - which they were for a while - and suggesting that's the rough standard Liverpool are looking for in a back-up keeper. And again, that's closer to Westwood's level than Bazunu.

(I know you're not comparing Mignolet to Bazunu, but I did want to head off any suggestions of "Why are you dismissing PotM at Rochdale but evaluating Mignolet based on PotY at Sunderland?")

[John83]

This is going in circles. I think you're nearly all in agreement that Westwood is the safer option, but disagree about the amount of evidence for the two bright prospects. Sadly, that's where we are right now: call an older player out of the wilderness or roll the dice on a kid. Things will be much clearer in a year or two, when hopefully we're arguing over two cracking young keepers playing every week at Championship level or better, but for now we're scrambling to find a backup for Randolph.

[SkStu]

Bazunu is just a promising academy player at the moment by contrast. So that's why I think Kelleher is closer to Westwood than to Bazunu. That's all.

I dont think that is a fair representation of Bazunu currently at all. He has played 30 games as a 19 year old in a tough league and it appears is doing very well for them. I think he is beyond the "promising academy player" tag already to be fair and looks like he will make the grade as a pro. Kelleher by contrast has 9 senior appearances for Liverpool. All things considered, I would put them pretty close but, of the two, would start Kelleher if it was a straight choice for the Serbia game. On the flip side to that, based on what i have seen, i would back Bazunu to have the better career.

Geographically, Rochdale is closer to Sheffield than Liverpool is so, yeah, there's also that.

[pineapple stu]

I would back Bazunu to have the better career.

This could well be the case alright - it's too early to tell for sure.

But Man City currently have 32 academy players out on loan. That includes Joe Hodge at Derry, but also players at Sporting, Twente, Leeds, Blackburn, Udinese, etc. Other academy players - such as Doyle, Delap and Nmencha - aren't out on loan and have made their first-team debuts.

I think a bit of context is reasonable here - and I think for now, "promising academy player" is fair.

[Exgrad]

John Fallon seems to think Aaron Connolly has a chance of making the squad:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/...-40244120.html

All though he has included Idah as well, and thought he was going for operation and was defo out.

[Exgrad]

And just see that McClean is in his squad as well, had missed that it looks like he will be fit by then too:

https://www.independent.ie/sport/soc...-40190055.html

Looked a disaster a few weeks back with injuries, but improving now, maybe we'll have a very well rested squad!

[DeLorean]

Of course it's speculation. This is an internet forum after all. But I'm happy to trust Klopp's judgement in promoting Kelleher to number 2 ahead of Adrian (who has 100+ Premier League games and has been called up to the Spanish squad). Bazunu is just a promising academy player at the moment by contrast. So that's why I think Kelleher is closer to Westwood than to Bazunu. That's all.

Adrian was signed on the basis of that reputation, sure, but he has flopped majorly in the moments they've needed him, which has worked out nicely for Kelleher.

Were they absolutely tip-top first choice keepers? Probably not. But I'm not talking about that - I'm talking about evaluating a second choice keeper, who doesn't need to be absolutely tip-top (indeed, couldn't be, because if he was, he wouldn't sit on the bench for you.)

If you're going to go down the 'I trust Klopp's judgement because he's a great manager' route I think it's reasonable to highlight that his judgement on goalkeepers hasn't always been rock solid, be it back up or otherwise.

So I'm comparing Kelleher as reserve to Karius/Mignolet as reserve - which they were for a while - and suggesting that's the rough standard Liverpool are looking for in a back-up keeper. And again, that's closer to Westwood's level than Bazunu.

Yes, this is where we're miles apart, which is fine of course, but I just don't think we can loosely decide that Kelleher is roughly around the same standard as Karius/Mignolet just because he's occupying the same role as they once had. But we can agree to disagree because John83 is right, we are just going around in circles!

[Razors left peg]

Westwood hasnt played more than 20 games in a season for Wednesday since the 2016 season. Is that solely down to injuries or was he dropped for periods?

[pineapple stu]

Yes, this is where we're miles apart, which is fine of course, but I just don't think we can loosely decide that Kelleher is roughly around the same standard as Karius/Mignolet just because he's occupying the same role as they once had. But we can agree to disagree because John83 is right, we are just going around in circles!

No problems agreeing to disagree - although I can't agree it's "bizarre" that I'd view the Liverpool backup keeper as closer to Westwood (taking into account he's possibly past his peak at 36) than to Bazunu (one of 32 Man City academy players out on loan, a stage which Kelleher has progressed past).

Westwood hasnt played more than 20 games in a season for Wednesday since the 2016 season. Is that solely down to injuries or was he dropped for periods?

Seems Garry Monk didn't see him as number 1 - so that was a fair bit of 19/20 and into this season gone. Monk then got sacked and the new manager has Westwood back in.

[Razors left peg]

Seems Garry Monk didn't see him as number 1 - so that was a fair bit of 19/20 and into this season gone. Monk then got sacked and the new manager has Westwood back in.

I guess my point then would be that is a guy who has often been a back up keeper in the Championship recently should not be seen as the safer option to Kelleher just because he is older.

[DeLorean]

No problems agreeing to disagree - although I can't agree it's "bizarre" that I'd view the Liverpool backup keeper as closer to Westwood (taking into account he's possibly past his peak at 36) than to Bazunu (one of 32 Man City academy players out on loan, a stage which Kelleher has progressed past).

You don't need to - that's the whole point of agreeing to disagree.

[pineapple stu]

I guess my point then would be that is a guy who has often been a back up keeper in the Championship recently should not be seen as the safer option to Kelleher just because he is older.

I think it's certainly true that we don't have any really good options at the moment. It's hard to know whether Monk was right in dropping Westwood - he did get the sack in 18 months after all, but then who doesn't these days - but certainly Westwood isn't a nailed-on Championship starter and that's not ideal. In his defence, he is still playing more often than Kelleher and has proven his ability down the years.

[seanfhear]

Westwood should definitely be in the squad if he accepts the call up = You would think he would from what he said recently.

If whoever else is available is completely outdoes Westwood in training then Kenny has a decision to make. Even working and training with Westwood should be a good experience for our younger goalkeepers. He has been around for a long time and surely has learned a lot in that time. Depends if he is the type of fella to hand on his knowledge and experience.

[lofty9]

I guess my point then would be that is a guy who has often been a back up keeper in the Championship recently should not be seen as the safer option to Kelleher just because he is older.

Just for clarity on Westwood - alongside Sam Hutchinson for Weds were ‘sent to Coventry’ so to speak by two managers for some reason not football related (rumours of fear of bonus payments to them), Monk and Lukhaky. The caretakers, Pulis and Moore have all had him first choice.

[Razors left peg]

John Fallon writing in the Examiner today thinks that Connolly will be in the squad
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/...-40244120.html

My team would be

Kelleher
Coleman O'Shea Clarke Stephens
Cullen Hendrick
O'Dowda Brady Connolly
Parrott

Its not perfect but I think its got enough passing ability to do what Kenny wants and some pace on the wings. I've gone for Parrott up top because I think theres more upside long term when its basically a toss up call who you pick there.

[Colbert Report]

Troy Parrott over Shane Long? What's the deal with Shane Long, he's doing great in the Championship but the manager and posters on here seem to think he's finished.

[elatedscum]

Am I the only person who hasn’t seen much of Westwood in the past three years? I think I’ve watched one game that he played since wednesday played the playoffs in 2017. Hard really to judge how much the level has dropped over the years and if there’s been a Shay-like decline. He certainly was thereabouts the best keeper in the championship about 6 or 7 years ago.

I’d be pretty confident that Kelleher would handle the occasion, as he hasn’t shown any nerves playing big games for Liverpool. Hopefully they are both in the squad along with one of Travers, O’Leary, Bazunu and McDermott.

As for the the rest of the squad, I think with the injuries, the defence and midfield pick themselves more or less, the attacking players is so hard to work out with uncertainty over Idah, Connolly and McClean. Callum Robinson is probably the only sure thing. And then a few of Horgan, O’Dowda, Long, Collins, Curtis, Maguire, Hogan, Parrott...