What could/should the FAI do for the league?

[pineapple stu]

But literally every other country in Europe has a pyramid structure. Here's the Georgian structure - population 3.7m; five levels. Here's the Estonian structure - population 1.3m; six levels. Here's the Luxembourg structure - population 600k; five levels. Here's the Icelandic structure - population 300k; five levels.

Every country in Europe has a clear path from the bottom to the top. Except us. And as we're talking about the LoI being a basketcase, it's fairly clear ours isn't a model to follow...

Population and so forth is irrelevant. If a town is too small, the local club will stay in the lower leagues. If a club has ambition, they'll rise through the leagues, hopefully generating interest as they go. If they reach a plateau, fine - but the FAI must give them reasons for ambition.

If their ground is a pitch with a bit of rope, they don't meet licencing and promotion is denied. You ask what St Mochta's would bring to the league - but what do Athlone bring to the league in their current state? Why deny St Mochta's a chance to show what they could bring to the league?

If the league becomes stronger, but more Dublin-based - so what?

This happens in literally every country in Europe. Except one...

It's far a better model than picking a region, dumping them in the First Division, and hoping they'll somehow take off (Dublin City, Kildare County, Wexford Youths, etc, etc, etc)

[Real ale Madrid]

Is there an appetite within the LSL and MSL teams to have a pyramid structure?

[Eminence Grise]

The fundamental problem of the league is governance at national and club level.

Tinkering with pyramids, summer/winter seasons, reducing entry fees, increasing prize money and whatnot addresses symptoms not the disease. The FAI – or a new authority of FAI, clubs and other relevant stakeholders – needs to have powers and sanctions, not just over clubs but over those who own and run them. The FAI must come down like a ton of bricks on chancers who run clubs into the ground. Fines for directors, bans from all football activity, dodgy licence applications accepted only when directors lodge personal funds in advance to cover any possible issues – otherwise back to the drawing board or drop a division. Black and white rules. And clubs should have to accept an FAI nominee from outside football as a non-executive director, acting in much the same capacity as public interest directors appointed by government.

Why start with this? Well, good governance gives a degree of certainty.

It’s hard to attract and retain the talent to help the league develop if word circulates that players might not get paid regularly if at all. Limerick and Bray have damaged every club’s reputation by association this season.

It’s hard to attract new clubs if the feeling prevails that the league makes up the rules as it goes along, and your club could be stitched up or made up depending on who’s in charge. Tralee Dynamos, the Galway DVD, the Athlone betting saga are cases in point.

And finally, having admitted to the larceny of lecturing in PR a few times here over the years, I would categorically advise potential sponsors to avoid the league and any clubs bar a handful. If the sponsored party has a dodgy reputation, it only gets the low revenue it deserves, and even then there’s little to gain for a sponsor – which is why so many sponsorships are more to do with local goodwill than real commercial value, and the national deal is relatively chickenfeed for the market penetration and media coverage secured.

Good governance leads to being trustworthy and respected. That through a series of turns leads to increased revenue and stability.

There’s more but what’s the point? Nobody ****ing listens in the FAI.

[pineapple stu]

Is there an appetite within the LSL and MSL teams to have a pyramid structure?

In the current set-up, I'd put it on a par with Ian Paisley wanting a United Ireland.

Could the clubs be incentivised to step up? You'd have to hope so, I think. Not all of them, for sure, but if you had ten teams between the provinces who could make a decent stab at a Premier set-up - with proper supports, prize money, etc - the league would be a hell of a lot better for it.

The fundamental problem of the league is governance at national and club level.

Tinkering with pyramids, summer/winter seasons, reducing entry fees, increasing prize money and whatnot addresses symptoms not the disease. The FAI – or a new authority of FAI, clubs and other relevant stakeholders – needs to have powers and sanctions, not just over clubs but over those who own and run them. The FAI must come down like a ton of bricks on chancers who run clubs into the ground. Fines for directors, bans from all football activity, dodgy licence applications accepted only when directors lodge personal funds in advance to cover any possible issues – otherwise back to the drawing board or drop a division. Black and white rules. And clubs should have to accept an FAI nominee from outside football as a non-executive director, acting in much the same capacity as public interest directors appointed by government.

I'd agree with all of that, except to note that by giving extra prize money, by creating a pyramid, by generating interest among new clubs - by doing all this, you're giving the FAI extra powers to punish errant clubs. So in Bray's case - drop them back to the fourth tier. Let someone competent up. Happens all the time across Europe. It won't rid the league of dodgily-run clubs, but at least it'd help mitigate against it to some extent. How many clubs have we seen in the past decade going bankrupt and starting in the First Division - just one division below where they were or, worse, the exact same place they were? Daft stuff.

[Eminence Grise]

I completely agree with the pyramid as an eventual model, and dropping several tiers is proper regulation and punishment, but it's one season of jaw-jaw, one of framing the process, and one more at least to get clubs ready before it can come in, starting today. In the meantime let's start by making life hard for directors so that they have to get their houses in order so the pyramid starts with a clean base and good governance is the norm not the exception.

[pineapple stu]

Yep, agree completely with that. I think the PCA document talks about a 5-year timeline for example.

The question then is how do you punish a club that has nothing, is presumably perilously near the edge both financially and volunteer-wise, that the FAI can't afford to lose? I don't know what the answer to that is; that's why I think the current sanctions are actually reasonable.

There's surely only so many investor mates Fran Gavin has.

[Eminence Grise]

Until a pyramid comes in? Suspended relegation. Let's say the 2023 season is when the tier becomes operational. A club receives the sanction in 2019, and knows that unless it meets designated criteria every year thereafter it will be relegated to Tier 4 in 2023. The further down the line a suspended relegation is handed out the less time a club has to turn things around - which is motivation enough for early, consistent good governance to become ingrained. Two sanctions, though, and relegation becomes automatic - even if the club won the 2022 league.

Punishment now? Like I've been saying, go after the directors not the club. Banning them from all football activity (there must be something in the rule book about bringing the game into disrepute or something similarly broad) allows for their speedy removal and a new board to come in who the FAI then work with to resolve the issues.

Short term there needs to be changes to the rule book allowing the FAI to appoint an interim board of independent directors or a commissioner who then run the club independent of all outside interference. But above all stop accepting BS licencing applications.

[disgruntled]

Is there an appetite within the LSL and MSL teams to have a pyramid structure?

The Munster Senior League themselves would never go for it & that's controlled by the Munster Senior League clubs themselves. So I guess that's a no
I'm sure other regional association clubs might have a similar opinion ?

In an attempt to give players to old for under 19's a game Cork City applied for membership of the Munster Senior League a few years ago.
Even though City fulfilled all the criteria for membership their application was refused on the grounds that it would be unfair to the other teams.
They appealed the decision. The appeal was heard by the same people who refused their application in the first place.
They could have appealed to the Munster Football Association but that appeal would have also been heard by the same people.
In the end City just gave up on the idea because it was obvious that no matter what they did they would never be accepted.

Though in that case, the crisis is that we lose 2 or 3 clubs entirely and suddenly don't have a national league with a second flight, as UEFA I think require.

I thought that as well until I asked someone who I would expect would know the facts. He assured me that we didn't need a second division.
What we needed was a league that wasn't closed to new entrants.
I'm still not convinced but I haven't been able to find the relevant information anywhere.
Perhaps someone else can come up with it ?

[pineapple stu]

The Munster Senior League themselves would never go for it & that's controlled by the Munster Senior League clubs themselves. So I guess that's a no
I'm sure other regional association clubs might have a similar opinion ?

Quite probably alright. So it's the FAI's task to bring them around, by hook or by crook. It's not an easy task, but governing the game in its overall best interests is what they're paid to do.

I thought that as well until I asked someone who I would expect would know the facts. He assured me that we didn't need a second division.
What we needed was a league that wasn't closed to new entrants.
I'm still not convinced but I haven't been able to find the relevant information anywhere.
Perhaps someone else can come up with it ?

That's interesting - it could very well be a foot.ie truism! Possibly the UEFA statues (pdf download) would be the place to start, but they make no mention of such a requirement.

It is a UEFA requirement that the top flight must contain a minimum of seven teams apparently - but whether we could have a top flight of 7 and a second tier of 5, I don't know.

That said, two divisions of eight teams should obviously spell crisis for the FAI.

[The Donie Forde]

That's the kind of 'big-picture' ambitious thinking our league could desperately do with more of.

One 50-seater bus would cost somewhere in the region of €400-500k? [guessing]
Great idea, if the FAI had a spare €8-10 million lying around. And even if they had, they wouldn't be buying buses for LOI clubs.

The two main problems with creating a sustainable/professional league are population and the GAA, and not in that order.

[legendz]

Folks, they say if you mention the word 'pyramid' three times legendz will appear!

lol, lol & lol

The guy with username of Stuttgart was more of a supporter of the idea than I was but anyways that neither here nor there.

The FAI to be fair have tried different structures. They've gone from 10 to 12 and back to 10 in the Premier Division.

They tried front loading the season with a lot of games. If comment from some quarters is a fair reflection of general consensus, it hasn't quite worked out.

The FAI are currently implementing the underage leagues, now at U15 to U19.

They tried the A Championship. I support that idea but they are right to address the underage structures first. Once the underage structures are complete, an intermediary league for LoI reserve teams and non-LoI teams who are part of the youth leagues could be put in place in a few years time.

What can clubs do to improve the league? Is the work being done by Waterford an example? Their owner seems to have the football nouse to get structures in place. Very early in his ownership I heard of Waterford making partnerships with junior clubs in neighbourhing counties. This broadens their talent pool net but can also help build connections with a wider area and bring more support.

Limerick to follow Waterford's example would build strong connections with Clare, Kerry and Tipperary.

[EatYerGreens]

One 50-seater bus would cost somewhere in the region of €400-500k? [guessing]
Great idea, if the FAI had a spare €8-10 million lying around. And even if they had, they wouldn't be buying buses for LOI clubs.

The two main problems with creating a sustainable/professional league are population and the GAA, and not in that order.

Holy fcuk ! I wouldn't apply for a job in procurement, if I was you

[nigel-harps1954]

I don't like this comment thrown out by a few people of "would X league have an interest in joining up?".

They shouldn't be asked. They should be told.

The FAI are the governing body of all football in Ireland. They should be setting out the rules, regulations, and running order of football across the country.

The problem is, many of the FAI directors come from these junior leagues and they've no interest in progression themselves.

It's time they took football in Ireland by the balls and enforced a proper pyramid system.

[Real ale Madrid]

Holy fcuk ! I wouldn't apply for a job in procurement, if I was you

What do you mean we can't have Gold plated taps in the bathrooms on our bus. If Cobh have them we are getting them.

[EatYerGreens]

What do you mean we can't have Gold plated taps in the bathrooms on our bus. If Cobh have them we are getting them.

For half a million you'd probably get them, and still have change

[nigel-harps1954]

Holy fcuk ! I wouldn't apply for a job in procurement, if I was you

He's actually right though. That would be close to the cost of a new 50 seat coach.

To get them second hand, a 2015-2016 coach will set you back around €200k at least.

[Philosophizer]

They shouldn't be asked. They should be told.
It's time they took football in Ireland by the balls and enforced a proper pyramid system.

Well said. When the German FA wanted to totally overhaul German football (about 15 years ago now) there was major opposition from all quarters. It involved all the major German clubs having to build and operate academies that adhered to rigorous standards. The German FA said it was their way or the highway. In the end all the clubs signed up, some very reluctantly. 15 years later their clubs were teeming with young talent and they won the World Cup.

[Real ale Madrid]

He's actually right though. That would be close to the cost of a new 50 seat coach.

To get them second hand, a 2015-2016 coach will set you back around €200k at least.

Big difference between 200k and 500k! - Anyway I reckon you could pick up a good quality bus 2-3 years old for around 80,000k if you bought more than one. If you had a depot of 10 buses controlled by the FAI and sent out as required each weekend. You would be talking about an initial investment of approx 1m in the league, and a rolling investment of approx 100k per year to invest in upkeep of stock,depreciation etc. Some sort of central investment in things like this would be a great start from the FAI. Considering JD's salary is 400k per year its hardly groundbreaking stuff.

[Eminence Grise]

Yeah, but a €400k bus only holds 50. For the same money JD takes everybody for a ride.

[marinobohs]

Well said. When the German FA wanted to totally overhaul German football (about 15 years ago now) there was major opposition from all quarters. It involved all the major German clubs having to build and operate academies that adhered to rigorous standards. The German FA said it was their way or the highway. In the end all the clubs signed up, some very reluctantly. 15 years later their clubs were teeming with young talent and they won the World Cup.

To be fair the German FA 'encouraged' clubs by making funding more available to those who complied, problem here is the FAI have very little funding to make available ! you are right though that getting anything done4 by the FAI takes an eternity, this stems back to the old management structure where different factions objected to pretty much everything.
A major overhaul is needed and that is unlikely to be reached by consensus