Originally Posted by Diggs246
This has already been discussed in another thread and the question has been concluded to an absolute certainty.
A player is only recognised as 'switched' when he/she is capped in a competitive game at any level by the new association.
FIFA is about the only sporting association to have this, other sport associations generally recognise the player as being switched when they give the permission for the switch.
Last edited by geysir; 09/03/2018 at 9:03 PM.
Thats not how i read it to be honest
This has already been discussed in another thread and the question has been concluded to an absolute certainty.
A player is only recognised as 'switched' when he/she is capped in a competitive game at any level by the new association.
FIFA is about the only sporting association to have this, other sport associations generally recognise the player as being switched when they give the permission for the switch.
18 Change of Association
1. If a Player has more than one nationality, or if a Player acquires a new nationality, or if a Player is eligible to play for
several representative teams due to nationality, he may, only once, request to change the Association for which he is
eligible to play international matches to the Association of another country of which he holds nationality
Good piece. Ewan MacKenna always makes a lot of sense, although I think he might have had a read of the piece I put together before he penned his own. He wrote:
""We could get into the two-faced nature of it all....
Or how FIFA, in 2007, even tried to placate the IFA with a special offer allowing them to select those who weren't British nationals but came from Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan, only for them to refuse. Of how Gerry Armstrong was brought in by the IFA to identify players who were 'at risk' of switching, meaning something obvious and dangerous.
These were two paragraphs I'd added to mine the other day:
"It is worth remembering that when FIFA did actually make the extraordinary gesture of offering the IFA special treatment in respect of their complaints over the matter of player eligibility back in November of 2007, the IFA rejected the proposal, even though the FAI were prepared to accept it.
The exceptional proposal would have allowed the IFA to select Irish nationals born south of the border who were not British citizens and who had no legal connection to the territory of the IFA. It would have enabled, for example, the association to select individuals from the Ulster-Scots community in the southern border counties of Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan. Many people from this community culturally identify with the Northern Ireland statelet and its football team despite their birth and upbringing on the southern side of the border. Willie Hay, Basil McCrea, Maurice Devenney and Charley McAdam are just a few examples of public figures from this community."
And I'd added this tweet to an update:
In fairness, I ripped off his WordPress template, so I'll let it slide this time.
Has it? On what basis? I thought we were always a bit unsure on this one. Even Yann wasn't totally sure when I asked him. First time, he said he thought that the first competitive cap after a request effected or consummated the switch:
This has already been discussed in another thread and the question has been concluded to an absolute certainty.
On a later occasion, his view had changed and he said he felt the request being granted was the conclusive element:
As it happens, Michael O'Neill appeared to think this too judging by his comments earlier in the week where he claimed Daniel Devine can't play for NI again since he "signed an international transfer" to the FAI, even though he hasn't played for the FAI. O'Neill claimed Devine would have been in his Euros squad otherwise, so it sounds like he'd looked into having the switch voided or reversed and was possibly told it wasn't possible.
I'm pretty sure there was a quote as well from a story posted on the forum around the time Grealish was waiting for his request to switch to the FA to be approved where an FAI official said that Grealish would be lost for good as soon as the request was granted. I can't quite put my finger on it right though. Maybe someone else can help?
I did find this RTÉ story whilst I was looking for it though: https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2015...l-on-complete/
It states:
"With no competitive internationals between now and next year’s Euros in France, Grealish won’t technically be tied to England at senior international level before the competition starts.
This means he could still feature for Ireland, though this seems a long-shot given his recent decision."
That conforms with your understanding, although, as we know only too well, we can't always rely on the mainstream media when it comes to seeking clarity on eligibility matters.
I thought it had been put to bed, I mean it was proven beyond doubt. Just how much more do you want? 101% proof?
Cap Tied
"In the event where a player is eligible to play for multiple nations, he is only 'cap-tied' to a nation after playing for its senior team in an official competition, or having played in an official competition at youth level and later submitting a request to change national association with*FIFA."I thought it had been put to bed, I mean it was proven beyond doubt. Just how much more do you want? 101% proof?
Cap Tied
When was it proven beyond doubt? Just 100 per cent proof will suffice.I thought it had been put to bed, I mean it was proven beyond doubt. Just how much more do you want? 101% proof?
Cap Tied
I'd been searching for some info on Dominic Ball (who represented the IFA at youth level 24 times before switching to the English FA without a hint of outrage or outcry from NI quarters), but came across this article from 2015: https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/s...-31504042.html
It says the following in respect of another IFA youth player Cameron McGeehan:
"Jim Magilton has warned any player who is considering turning his back on Northern Ireland to be careful not to plunge themselves into the international wilderness.
The Irish FA has invoked the Fifa five-day rule to ban Cameron McGeehan from playing for Luton Town today after he knocked back a call up to Magilton's under-21 squad for today's opening European Championship qualifier.
It is believed that the 20-year-old wants to take his chances with England, similar to Dominic Ball, who has won under-19 and under-20 caps for England, despite playing for Northern Ireland at every level bar full international."
The IFA really do seem to get a thrill out of vindictive attempts to stifle the aspirations of players who might once have played for them before changing their minds. I wonder how often that rule is invoked by associations generally.
For what it's worth, Jim Magilton also said the following about the switch process:
"There is no ambiguity. Once a player makes the decision to switch that's it, there is no going back. It's clear in the FIFA rules."
When was it proven beyond doubt? Just 100 per cent proof will suffice.
I'd been searching for some info on Dominic Ball (who represented the IFA at youth level 24 times before switching to the English FA without a hint of outrage or outcry from NI quarters), but came across this article from 2015: https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/s...-31504042.html
It says the following in respect of another IFA youth player Cameron McGeehan:
"Jim Magilton has warned any player who is considering turning his back on Northern Ireland to be careful not to plunge themselves into the international wilderness.
The Irish FA has invoked the Fifa five-day rule to ban Cameron McGeehan from playing for Luton Town today after he knocked back a call up to Magilton's under-21 squad for today's opening European Championship qualifier.
It is believed that the 20-year-old wants to take his chances with England, similar to Dominic Ball, who has won under-19 and under-20 caps for England, despite playing for Northern Ireland at every level bar full international."
The IFA really do seem to get a thrill out of vindictive attempts to stifle the aspirations of players who might once have played for them before changing their minds. I wonder how often that rule is invoked by associations generally.
For what it's worth, Jim Magilton also said the following about the switch process:
"There is no ambiguity. Once a player makes the decision to switch that's it, there is no going back. It's clear in the FIFA rules."
I thought my last post cleared this up
"having played in an official competition at youth level and later submitting a request to change national association with*FIFA."
Once Jack Grealish applied and changed association, he was gone for us for life
That's just from a Wikipedia article though. Anyone can edit that. Nevertheless, if I had make a call one way or the other on what I thought most likely effected a switch or made it permanent, I would tend to concur with your view that it is the formal granting of the request rather than the first competitive cap for the new association. This interpretation would appear to be in accordance with a literal reading of article 8 and it would also appear to be supported by the opinion of FAI and IFA officials. I can only guess, for example, that Michael O'Neill looked into reversing Daniel Devine's switch but was informed it wouldn't be possible. That may not be the case, of course, but it would just appear likely to me based on his words:
"Daniel Devine of Partick Thistle is a West Belfast boy and would have gone to Euros [2016] with us. Only he can't play for Northern Ireland as he’s signed an international transfer.’"
Isn't geysir saying that it has been proven that it is the first cap for the new association that makes the switch permanent, however?
IFA say Michael O’Neill was speaking 'in a personal capacity'
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/...ty-467959.html
From a couple of days ago. You got to laugh at Britain's comments, especially his "trying to find a positive way" justification of Michael O'Neill's comments.
Jack has not yet been capped yet at competitive level for England. He has to cross the white line, either in the starting line up or as a sub in a competitive game at any age level before he's recognised as having used up his once in a lifetime choice. The toulon toournament does not count as competitive.
Jack can cancel his request to change from the FAI to FA.
He has played in U21 Championship qualifier.
And??
Yes, and there are numerous examples. Even just use plain common sense.Isn't geysir saying that it has been proven that it is the first cap for the new association that makes the switch permanent, however?
Why do you think there is all the rumpus about capping a player in a senior competitive game in order to get a player tied.
That's the gilded criteria.
A dual national has 2 choices.
the first choice is who to play for and the second choice is should he chose to switch over to the other nationality.
Being eligible to play for a country does not mean a dual national player has used up a choice .
He has to be capped at underage competitive level in order for to be recognised as using up his first choice.
We were Jack's first choice. He is not regarded by FIFA as using his onetime right to change association until that time he is capped by England at any competitive level.
One eg
Rafinha played for Spain, switched to Brazil, but still eligible to declare for France
Which game was that? Afaics he hasn't been capped at competitive level.
I'm I missing something here, I might be wrong but Jack is clearly no longer able to play for us, regardless of his under age cap for England
"If a Player has more than one nationality, or if a Player acquires a new nationality, or if a Player is eligible to play for
several representative teams due to nationality, he may, only once, request to change the Association for which he is
eligible to play international matches to the Association of another country of which he holds nationality"
and your own post
"In the event where a player is eligible to play for multiple nations, he is only 'cap-tied' to a nation after playing for its senior team in an official competition, or having played in an official competition at youth level and later submitting a request to change national association with*FIFA."
The question is when exactly a player's change of associations becomes 'final' or 'irreversible'.
Is it at the moment that FIFA stamp the word APPROVED in big red letters on his Change of Association application form? In which case, a player is tied to his new association from that moment on, even if he is never selected for any future game, friendly or competitive.
Or is it the moment that he actually takes the field in a competitive game for his new association? And up to that point, does the request to change association remain provisional, and could it be withdrawn, or even replaced by a new application for another association?
Grealish played in the Toulon tournament after his change of associations, but Idon't think that is classified by FIFA as a competitive game.
Last edited by osarusan; 12/03/2018 at 4:22 PM.
Michael O'Neill issued a statement today j https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/s...-36695783.html
Posted it earlier:
https://foot.ie/threads/119079-Poten...=1#post1954072
https://www.uefa.com/under21/season=...325/index.html
The Toulon tournament is most definitely not a FIFA competitive tournament.
Wiki is indeed a wonderful source
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