Republic of Ireland V Sweden - Friday, 6th September 2013 - World Cup 2014 Qualifier

[Grafter]

I keep drinking vodka and listening to Beth Ortons
Ooh child on youtube. Gay, I know. But its apt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0tYkk_B-Cg

It's okay, we're all a bit like sulky teenage girls tonight who have had their hearts broken

Just for a little suffering, someone may as well tell me the most likely yet unlikely permutations with which we can still come second?

[tricky_colour]

I don't know how this hoof ball game should be played in order to figure out how or where our striker should be defending.
Under 'normal ' circumstances i'd expect our strikers to close down high up the pitch and then retreat to close down in midfield.
Long was not the problem in our team, our main problem was bi-passing cm and hoofing the ball up front as our default tactic.

I was just thinking of one particular incident when the Swedes were attacking and there was a man wide in bags of space who really needed to be marked
and Long was just strolling back, the Swedes go a major attack through him, I only remember it vaguely though I need to see it again in context.
It would be wrong to single out Long of course, few of our players covered themselves in glory, I noticed a number of unforced errors, sloppy
passing and giving the ball away, you really cannot afford to do that at this level, or any level really. Not only do we give the ball to them to attack but we lose the chance to attack ourselves, a double whammy, and of course when you do that everyone is out of position going in the other direction.

Of course one of the reason we bypass out midfield is because they struggle to create anything when they get the ball and of course they are prone to giving straight back to the opposition.

[avvenalaf]

What's Steve Staunton at these days?

[Crosby87]

Grafter, I will be glad:
I will be glad. (in a Scottish accent.)
1. Germany invades Poland which FIFA, through obvious rampant corruption, sees as a positive, and rewards them with 4 (three) points.
2. Austria hires the following people to run the country: Agnes Hitler, Bonnie Mengele, Larry D. Rommel, and the fan favorite; T. Reich III.
FIFA, Feeling international pressure to conform to actual rights, names Austria the host country for the next 50 years but er... suspends them 300 points.
3. "I had a Macedonia" actually becomes funny on the drunken tee shirts of sober Irish Teens.
4. Sweden finally erupts-literally- as the volcano of welfare called Mulsimano spews hate filled (though protected) pinko lava all over town and country.
5.FIFA buys IKEA, for .5 cents a Euro, or Drakkmar, or....yeah
6. Through YBIG:: Mick McCarthy is hired as next manager of Eire. Some say he played the long ball some say he was great.
7. FIFA declares Ireland has come in second. "They may never come in first other than in having the Worlds most talented writers of all time, which is of course the most important thing, but we love them anyway in the failure." Hey, Barack, we make Ireland Second? Yeah? (33 Billion US Dollars changes hands)
Yeah.

And there is your answer.

[NeverFeltBetter]

It's okay, we're all a bit like sulky teenage girls tonight who have had their hearts broken

Just for a little suffering, someone may as well tell me the most likely yet unlikely permutations with which we can still come second?

As near as I figure it:

Ireland beat Austria, lose to Germany and beat Kazakhstan, ending on 17 points.
Sweden beat Kazakhstan, lose to Austria and lose to Germany, ending on 17 points
Austria lose to Ireland, beat Sweden and beat the Faroes, ending on 17 points
Somewhere in that jumble, Ireland make up the GD difference of four less than the Swedes and 6 less than Austria.

Or maybe

Ireland beat Austria, lose to Germany and beat Kazakhstan, ending on 17 points.
Sweden draw with Kazakhstan, draw with Austria and lose to Germany, ending on 16 points
Austria lose to Ireland, draw with Sweden and beat the Faroes, ending on 15 points

But really it will most likely be:

Ireland draw with Austria, lose to Germany and beat Kazakhstan, ending on 15 points.
Sweden beat Kazakhstan, beat Austria and lose to Germany, ending on 20 points
Austria draw with Ireland, lose to Sweden and beat the Faroes, ending on 15 points

[Closed Account]

I'm kind of glad it's over, the Trapattoni era.

He came here, he had his system, don't play football in our own half, get it down the pitch and if we win the 50/50, play from there, if we don't we'll defend them coming forward. If I'd just taken over a team, that I subjectively thought was lacking in technicality, it's not a bad tactic. But if I couldn't improve on that tactic over 5 years, because I've managed teams for 40 years and it's been my most successful, whilst others teams develop and other systems emerge, well then maybe I'd think it's time to hang up my tracksuit.

I think anyone with an interest in football and seeing it being played in the same way we all want it to be played, can agree that it's time for Trapattoni to go. Thanks for trying.

But let's not the players off the hook, Sweden didn't play all that well, there was never any real concerted periods of pressure, they had 3 shots on target and scored 2. You can't blame Forde for the first, it was a cracking cross, great forward play and the header was so close to him, no time to react. Sure Buffon or Casillas might have saved it, but the majority of goalkeepers wouldn't have. Whelan has to take blame for the second, I was screaming at the television for him to let him run offside. Schoolboy error. I'd say he had Larsson's run immediately before that in his mind and tracked him obliviously. Of course Sweden had other chances, Larssons header springs to mind but I can't honestly remember 10-15mins where Ireland were under the kind of pressure we usually subject ourselves to.

I think most people were happy with the lineup beforehand, a few reservations as usual over Walters on the right where he's largely ineffective, and that came to fruition tonight. It's funny, at 1-0 up, I was still fairly happy and thought we had the players on the pitch to win, but, as Ronnie said in commentary at 2-1 down. "Do we have the players to come back from this? I don't think so." And he's right, based on the way they played last night. And a large part(not all mind), is down to Trapattoni. Have you ever tried playing in midfield or up front for that manner, when largely you see the ball flying over your head, and when you do get the ball at your feet, it's just after you tackled someone, or from a knock down and you've no time on the ball. If that's been happening for 75 minutes and you finally get behind the defence with a chance to square it, you're not fully up to speed.

The main difference in the teams tonight was the cutting edge. Long got in 3 or 4 good positions and didn't have the nous to capitalise. Ibrahimovic, as all great players do, picked the right pass at the right time. Despite Traps tacticaldeficiencies, we still could have won that game had players chosen the right option when opportunities arose.

As always I'm an optimist, and I think there's the making of a good XI out there, we may have to go back to the drawing board, suffer a couple of losses along the way, but we need to adapt to modern football sooner rather than later. First 30 mins it was great watching us closing down people quickly and getting tackles in, but that's not necessary. There's ways of getting the ball back without diving in, getting out of position and tiring yourself out just because it gets the crowd going and it's the way you used to play on the pitches back when you were a kid. That sort of thunder and bluster is disguising what's really going on. We simply don't have the players. A good coach could make something out of that bunch, but how many of that first XI are really undroppable, who's indespensible at their club, who's gonna walk into our team whether they play to Traps tactics or not? Apart from Robbie, no-one. Gone are the days when 5 or 6 of our starting XI are club captains(and that's only 12 years ago). People calling for Brady or Hoolahan after last night, would they have made that much of a difference? Why aren't they playing at bigger clubs? The grass isn't always greener. Our problems run much deeper than the coach we had on the sidelines, the players on the pitch and the players who didn't get a game. And they're massive problems.

It might just be a great time to take a Michel Sablon approach to things.

[Crosby87]

Fine. I leave you with Ardeeboys favorite video of all time: Phil Collins and the True Colors of Life.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbS8JK4TS8Q

[tricky_colour]

Anyhow our path to glory seem to be two wn our remaining 3 matches (Germany Austria Kaza) giving us 20 points.

Then Austria beat Sweden leaving both on 14. (plausible)

Sweden then lose to Germany and beat Kazakhstan leaving them on 17. (plausible)

Austria beat the Faroes (likely) leaving them on 17.

The tricky bit of course is beating Germany and Austria away, however we are better away from home so why not (let's face it it would be hard to be worse ).

Also an Austria Sweden draw also works for use it seems.

The spanner in the works is if Sweden beat Austria as everything else is in under our own control (at least in theory).

[shakermaker1982]

Dejected this morning, no anger like the Stan reign. Almost an acceptance since the German thrashing that we were just treading water until the plug was pulled on the Trap. Well that time has finally arrived but he cannot get all the blame for last night. None of the players played well. After a bright start they wilted as soon as Elmander got the equaliser & the most disappointing thing was that nobody was brave enough to try & get on the ball.

Whelan is Whelan. We all know his limitations (can't run, move nor pass a ball forward) but where the hell was McCarthy?

Just really disappointed. We look like we don't even know how to take throw ins, very little movement for the bloke trying to throw the ball in. Set pieces were dreadful once again & I'm amazed people thought McClean had a good game. One good tackle, runs around a bit but he very rarely picks the right option when in possession.

Not sure who will take over & who would be the best man for the job. I would like an Irish manager this time around but it's not a big pond.

At least the Trap has never lost a competitive away game. Just a shame we haven't beaten anyone of note at home. Grateful he got us to Euro 2012 but he should have gone after the tournament. We have regressed & things could get worse when Keane retires.

[ArdeeBhoy]

He'll put that 'right' before the campaign's over.

Besides being cheated in Paris he has left 2 years too late...

[OwlsFan]

Just a shame we haven't beaten anyone of note at home. Grateful he got us to Euro 2012 but he should have gone after the tournament. We have regressed & things could get worse when Keane retires.

We haven't beaten anyone of note at home since 2001 (Holland) and away since 1987 (Scotland) (not counting Estonia although some will argue we beat France in the play-off before extra time). Amazing statistics really and not all down to Trap.

Sweden defended well apart from the mistake that let Robbie in (if he went down and didn't score under the goalie's challenge would the keeper have been sent off?). They closed off any room for Coleman to overlap -hence his aimless punt across field that lead to their second goal. Sweden took their goals well although Forde could have done better for the second.

We created nothing. Mostly long balls but when we did try and play it usually ended up back with the keeper. Damned if we do. Damned if we don't.

Didn't like Trap's substitutions as usual.

Ah well, on to Vienna we go down to the dreaded mathematical probabilities but I'll be interested in being at a game where both teams have to win and I think that gives us a chance of perhaps winning. Sweden stifled us and hit us on the break as has happened in nearly all our home games since 2001. We need someone coming through to assist McCarthy and provide a bit of flair in midfield. When Robbie retires I really fear for us up front.

Positives: Robbie scoring to once again knocking back the anti-Robbie brigade; Dunne back and Pilkington now playing a competitive game, crowd didn't turn on the team.

Negatives: Lost, didn't test their keeper once in the game, no creativity even when we tried to play, poor substitution (Cox), trying the same thing for 93 minutes when it obviously wasn't working, dreadful dirge of a national anthem (almost asleep by the end of it - would really frighten the opposition). I am sure there are many more but that's enough to be going on with.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Fine. I leave you with Ardeeboys favorite video of all time: Phil Collins and the True Colors of Life.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbS8JK4TS8Q

It's not, it really isn't.

[pineapple stu]

It was more "Ireland are definitely not going to Brazil now" with a half hour still to play, which I dislike from any commentary team. If he wants to analyze Dunphy-style, he can go into the studio.

I don't see a problem with that at all. Certainly exactly what I was thinking anyway. So commentator sums up the mood of the game - isn't that in part what he's there for?

Sure Hoolohan features further up the park for Norwich.

I think a lot of your post is hyperbolic nonsense tbh. It can be summed up as "Everyone is rubbish, and everyone who wants someone else in is talking rubbish, and the manager has to go"

The bit on Hoolahan is the widest of the mark, I think. You simply can't replace a (nominally) defensive mid with an attacking mid - one who usually plays behind the leading forward - and think that that makes the team better. That's just not how football works. In any event, for those calling for Hoolahan to have started, he started Norwich's first game of the season, was dropped and came on as a sub in the second and didn't come off the bench in the third game. Hardly ideal preparation.

We haven't beaten anyone of note at home since 2001 (Holland) and away since 1987 (Scotland)

I think it's worth breaking this down a bit - yes, Holland (and France, kind of) are high point results that we haven't matched otherwise, and we can't be expected to beat these countries other than very irregularly.

But it's the results against middling teams that are killing us -

2006 - four draws against Switzerland and Israel; only beat the Faroes and Cyprus
2008 - only real exception; we beat Slovakia and Wales at home (and then got one point off Cyprus)
2010 - four draws against Montenegro and Bulgaria; only beat Cyprus and Georgia
2012 - two draws against Slovakia; did at least beat Armenia home and away - the high point since the Stan reign really.
2014 - two draws in three games against Sweden and Austria; only beat the Faroes and Kazakhstan

I know we haven't got the players, and we're not as good as even 2002. But not one win against a team higher than Armenia in ten years, and now we're starting to lose to middling teams as well (last night's game and Cyprus are our only "bad" defeats since 2004)

How is it possible to be that mundane? Are we overachieving by holding on to the coattails of Austria, Switzerland, Montenegro et al?

[the doc]

Gutted!

Down but not out, Come on Ireland

In Trap we still must trust

[brine3]

The bit on Hoolahan is the widest of the mark, I think. You simply can't replace a (nominally) defensive mid with an attacking mid - one who usually plays behind the leading forward - and think that that makes the team better. That's just not how football works.

Of course not. So you replace a two man midfield with a three man midfield, and play Hoolahan at the front of it. Gibson-McCarthy and Hoolahan in front of them. With one hard working striker in front. 4-5-1.

Then we can't play Robbie Keane because his career is based on living off knock-downs from a striking partner. He can't function as a single striker.

But I would prioritise fixing midfield. Anybody who watches Ireland can see that we have no midfield. Midfield is where matches are won and lost. If that means we have to drop Robbie Keane, then so be it.

---------Westwood/Forde
Coleman-Dunne-Wilson-O'Shea
--------Gibson---McCarthy
O'Brien------Hoolahan------McGeady
---------------Walters---------------

Pick eleven players who have a bit of a footballing brain (that's why I wouldn't pick McLeane) and then tell them not to be afraid to play football. Not sure how good Robbie Brady is really, so I've gone for Joey O'Brien, who is an intelligent player. Long-term, he has to be a starter in the team.

Play football and the goals will come.

[back of the net]

Gutted!

Down but not out, Come on Ireland

In Trap we still must trust

FFS will u cut the trap we trust nonsense.


Wake up

[geysir]

We created nothing. Mostly long balls but when we did try and play it usually ended up back with the keeper. Damned if we do. Damned if we don't.

Try to play? I say 1/10 for the effort and that's being generous.
When we did try and play in the 2nd half and not often,
CH to CH to FB to CH to goalie - hoof
CH to FB to LM to CH to goalie - hoof
The CM players don't show to receive the ball, they know it's going to end up being hoofed.
Do you seriously call that an effort to play the ball? Therefore the team is damned if we do try to play and damned if we don't?
First, a decision has to made that we might like to string a few passes together through CM to wide midfielders on occasion, instead of hoofing it all the time.
Then there has to be at least one player in midfield who can receive the ball and make a pass. The one player he picks just has to be the best player available, doesn't matter if it's championship level.
Even when we were chasing the game and qualification, Trap will not bring on somebody who can function with the ball at his feet, Brady and Wes. He will persist with brawn. And let's not mention the supposed fat lazy gimp Andy Reid who must be at least good for 30 minutes football.

We don't try to play the ball, we play hoof ball, we make no effort to to play the ball, we make no effort to use the players on the pitch to play the ball and we make a point of going out of our way to dismiss the merits of other players who can play a bit.
It is indeed strange that we are the only team in the top 50 in Europe who play this hoofball.
Our default tactic is hoof. And since nearly 2 years, this hoofball tactic has been a miserable failure.

[pineapple stu]

Of course not. So you replace a two man midfield with a three man midfield, and play Hoolahan at the front of it. Gibson-McCarthy and Hoolahan in front of them. With one hard working striker in front. 4-5-1.

So to fit in Hoolahan, you're going to bring in a player who doesn't want to play for us, drop about the only player capable of scoring goals for us and play a full-back on the wing?

Makes sense.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Ha ha.Well said PS.

[mark12345]

Gutted!

Down but not out, Come on Ireland

In Trap we still must trust

Doc, you might be a nice lad, but you are really everything that's wrong with Irish football.

Or perhaps you're only kidding "in Trap we still must trust"?

We have trusted this man right up to the Euros. He promised to change things after that debacle (ie play a different style of football) and did absolutely squat.

For my money all bets should have been off at that point for the likes of Andy Reid and Stephen Ireland and Stokes. Ok all of them had their issues at one time or another but their not going to Poland / Ukraine should have taught them a lesson. And it appears it did as they would all like to come back. But the stubborn old man kept them in the wilderness (can't say 100% what the situation was / is with Ireland but Reid and Stokes should have been back in the squad long ago).

And he persisted with Whelan among other sub standard players when he should have jettisoned them long long ago (remember O'Shea allowing Camoriesi all the room in the world to head the equaliser at Croke Park and then going walkabout for the second Italian goal - and he's still in the team).

So spare us the "in Trap we must trust" even if you are kidding.