World Cup qualifying group C

[DeLorean]

I'd have my doubts about how many of our players would be tactically aware enough to play a 532 at a high level.

Strange you say that as I always considered the wing back formation as a basic, stop the rot type of formula. Not many teams that I know of used it for very long. Martin O'Neill introduced it at Celtic after they had lost the league by twenty points or so to Rangers the season before. I always assumed it was to make them more solid than anything else, although with wide players like Agathe, Thompson, Petta, etc. it made them more potent as an attacking threat as well. Eventually though, they ended up changing to a more conventional 4-4-2 as I don't think 5-3-2 is really a long term solution. Teams seem to be able to figure it out after a while and there's less room for developing various tactics playing that system, as it's not very flexible. I think Liverpool did something similar years ago also under Roy Evans, around the time Phil Babb would have been playing for them.

[Stuttgart88]

Didn't Prandelli use it a few times at the Euros? Great to see a manager just switching from one to the other and the players adapting easily.

I like it a lot, but wouldn't go as far as recommending it for Ireland now, although I did about 8 years ago.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Don't think Trap would engage in such innovation or flexibility at this stage of his life, let alone managerial career...

If we got to the World Cup, it would really be a miracle. On the basis of the likes of McShane, Ward, Whelan & Sammon being anywhere near the team...

And on an unrelated point, Joey O'Brien, why not in the squad at least?

[paul_oshea]

I think its BS to say we don't have the players or the mentality to play 4-5-1. I think with the players we have the best setup would be 4-5-1. When Trap started he said it was the little details why we were conceding silly goals from set-pieces and open play. Originally for the first year or 2 we were compact and conceded little. That is no longer the case, probably as much down to players as opposed to his system at the time, as we concede a lot more now than then, still employing the same system. SO Traps point is no longer valid, the reasoning for playing the way we do doesn't hold water because we have conceded far too many goals over the last couple of years.

With Hoolahan, Mcgeady, Mclean/long, Keane, Mccarthy and one of Quinn/Hendrick/Whelan we are certainly capable of playing that system, in fact it probably is our best possible goal-scoring formation. Hoolahan loves to put the ball in behind the full back for a fast winger to run on to, as was shown against the Faroes and Georgia. McClean and McGeady or coleman would have the beating of most defenders for pace, certainly the teams we need to beat i.e. Sweden and Austria(bar alaba), the more chances we create the more we score, and the more we score the more chances we would put away as the players would start connecting and reading eachothers play better.

We are always conceding late goals, why not go for the killer at the start, over-run them with a playmaker like hoolahan splitting the defence open and fast wingers/full backs to run onto. Keane has shown that with good service into the box he is still a poacher. I think we are crying out for a 4-5-1/4-3-3.

We are no longer playing to our strengths employing 2 in midfield in a strict 4-4-2, as we are conceding too much anyway, we are actually being stifled by the current rigidity.

[Stuttgart88]

His point has gone over my head completely.

I was simply saying that we get slagged off by the press for getting the same or better results against the Faroes and Armenia than Sweden, Germany and Denmark did. What on earth is wrong with that, and what has the World Cup got to do with anything?

[paul_oshea]

He is saying they have never made it to the world cup and therefore they aren't much good.

[DeLorean]

If we got to the World Cup, it would really be a miracle. On the basis of the likes of McShane, Ward, Whelan & Sammon being anywhere near the team.

Well we qualified for the Euros with two of those guys actually on the team so I don't think it would constitute a 'miracle'.

[Stuttgart88]

He is saying they have never made it to the world cup and therefore they aren't much good.

Which is a pretty dumb point and certainly not a logical response to my point, and it puzzles me how AB could think it was worth thanking.

For what it's worth, the 3 teams I cited (Sweden, Denmark and Germany) all played good stuff at the last Euros. We should be pretty envious of Sweden and Denmark's record over the last decade.

[Stuttgart88]

Regardless of who is in the team or near it*, we're short-odds against qualifying. 1/5 is the current betting and I'd say that's about right, maybe even generous.

We have to get better results against teams like Sweden and Austria than we have got in a decade. We then need not to be 9th best second seed. That's probably 1/3 or 1/4.

Then we'll have to beat another strong team over two legs to qualify. It'd be generous to suggest that that's even evens - more likely 7/4 or 2/1 area. I don't think there'll be an Estonia to get this time around.

I wouldn't say it's a miracle, but it's a huge ask - and even if we played our best XI and managed to convincingly close out a winning situation.

* AB, adding Ward in is a red herring. I'm not sure McShane is much worse than anyone Sweden have in defence and I think Sammon is only a sub if everyone is fit, if the last few games have shown anything. Joey O'Brien could be in the squad but it's relatively marginal and he wouldn't start. We nearly all agree on Whelan.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Well we qualified for the Euros with two of those guys actually on the team so I don't think it would constitute a 'miracle'.

Aye, but in spite of, not because of.

And now we're carrying even more 'dead wood'. That's the point.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Regardless of who is in the team or near it*, we're short-odds against qualifying. 1/5 is the current betting and I'd say that's about right, maybe even generous.

We have to get better results against teams like Sweden and Austria than we have got in a decade. We then need not to be 9th best second seed. That's probably 1/3 or 1/4.

Then we'll have to beat another strong team over two legs to qualify. It'd be generous to suggest that that's even evens - more likely 7/4 or 2/1 area. I don't think there'll be an Estonia to get this time around.

I wouldn't say it's a miracle, but it's a huge ask - and even if we played our best XI and managed to convincingly close out a winning situation.

* AB, adding Ward in is a red herring. I'm not sure McShane is much worse than anyone Sweden have in defence and I think Sammon is only a sub if everyone is fit, if the last few games have shown anything. Joey O'Brien could be in the squad but it's relatively marginal and he wouldn't start. We nearly all agree on Whelan.

Not a red herring as played in this campaign. Which is why I mentioned him.

And you've given me the longest ever definition there of the word 'miracle' !

[Stuttgart88]

I think the team / squad has been refreshed by and large and if anything its potential to deliver (conservative approach and selections notwithstanding) is cause for optimism. The conservative approach and selection does negate that though!

I think both our full backs are markedly better than in the last campaign, and Forde is playing better than Given did in his last two years. A promising central midfield is looking to break out of the Trap selection time warp, Keane and Long are playing very well, Brady is emerging as an exciting talent, and so on. We also have the wild card of Pilkington's possible introduction.

[Stuttgart88]

Ward is a long way from the team now though. He as good as earned us two points in Kazakhstan too!

Your "miracle" is my "everything still to play for" though. Long odds or not, each next game in the sequence is winnable. Put it this way, we're not much further behind in the probability stakes than our rivals.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Maybe, but am regarding from our perspective and the proof I've seen in other qualifiers and friendlies. And to a lesser extent, other qualifying campaigns.

And you know as well as I do, a bit like our competition, there's no way every game is 'winnable'.

[Stuttgart88]

You said it'd be a miracle on the basis of McShane et al being near the team.

I'm saying it's odds against anyway and for more concrete reasons, but stuff it, it's exciting and it'd be utterly defeatist to take the view that only a miracle can see us qualify. Take each step as it comes and if we get a top 8 second place, brilliant. That's as good as we can have hoped for at the start of the campaign. Then we deal with a play-off.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Except it doesn't really matter what any of us think. Nor does it being defeatist. Any deviation will be a pleasant surprise, hopefully.

It will be nerve-wracking (forget the quality) but that's where the 'fun' begins and ends.
Still say we'll come 3rd. And we should blame Trapp.

[BonnieShels]

I think its BS to say we don't have the players or the mentality to play 4-5-1. I think with the players we have the best setup would be 4-5-1. When Trap started he said it was the little details why we were conceding silly goals from set-pieces and open play. Originally for the first year or 2 we were compact and conceded little. That is no longer the case, probably as much down to players as opposed to his system at the time, as we concede a lot more now than then, still employing the same system. SO Traps point is no longer valid, the reasoning for playing the way we do doesn't hold water because we have conceded far too many goals over the last couple of years.

With Hoolahan, Mcgeady, Mclean/long, Keane, Mccarthy and one of Quinn/Hendrick/Whelan we are certainly capable of playing that system, in fact it probably is our best possible goal-scoring formation. Hoolahan loves to put the ball in behind the full back for a fast winger to run on to, as was shown against the Faroes and Georgia. McClean and McGeady or coleman would have the beating of most defenders for pace, certainly the teams we need to beat i.e. Sweden and Austria(bar alaba), the more chances we create the more we score, and the more we score the more chances we would put away as the players would start connecting and reading eachothers play better.

We are always conceding late goals, why not go for the killer at the start, over-run them with a playmaker like hoolahan splitting the defence open and fast wingers/full backs to run onto. Keane has shown that with good service into the box he is still a poacher. I think we are crying out for a 4-5-1/4-3-3.

We are no longer playing to our strengths employing 2 in midfield in a strict 4-4-2, as we are conceding too much anyway, we are actually being stifled by the current rigidity.

I've been crying out about 4-5-1 for years. We have those players. It's easily the best formation for what we have at our disposal.

We get over-run in midfield so the logical approach would be to put another man in there!!!

[peadar1987]

I'm always skeptical about the size of our forwards. If Walters and Keane were involved in a terrible car crash that somehow fused them into one player who could hold up the ball, win headers and find the back of the net, it would be great, but I don't think any of our current squad are up to the job. And our midfielders don't have the ability to play the sort of fluid game that sees them popping up everywhere in dangerous positions, meaning we still do need a traditional forward, and feed them using our width. It was like when people were crying our for us to play a passing game against Spain, which I thought was just silly. We were never in a million years going to out-pass the Spanish, we needed to try and outfight or outmuscle them.

My opinion anyway. 4-4-2, or 4-4-1-1, with Robbie dropping deep to give an extra passing option to the midfielders, with Walters or Long staying high to still give the option of the long ball.

All players being available, I'd go for something along the lines of:

Forde
Sledge - Dunne - O'Shea - Wilson
Coleman - Hoolahan - Gibson - McGeady
Keane
Walters

[jbyrne]

Still say we'll come 3rd. And we should blame Trapp.

and if we come 2nd will you praise trap?

[ArdeeBhoy]

No. Not this time.