FIFA and Non Sovereign States

**Gather round** · 19/04/2013, 5:31 PM

Originally Posted by geysir

The more minnow members like Gibraltar that are added to the UEFA club, the more that might support the cry for playoffs to weed out the minnows.
Spain could well pursue a minnow play-off system to ensure they don't have to play against Gibraltar.
The first 40 on the UEFA list, plus 5 of the best from nr 41 downwards.
Leaving 9 qualifier groups of 5 teams each

Those two reasons are completely separate surely? Spain just want to avoid Gib, they'd have little reason per se to shun Kosova or Guernsey. They could do a deal as Azerbaijan and Armenia did in Euro 2008.

In the current European qualifying for Brazil 2014, the 53 teams will play a total of 268 matches.

Imagine if, in a much expanded UEFA, there were 13 groups each of only five teams, with winners alone progressing. The number of qualifiers would actually fall to 260.

**Stuttgart88** · 19/04/2013, 6:32 PM

Btw, our U19s only beat Gib 1-0 and I think they missed a late penalty. Our U19s are quite good. I don't know if the successful Villa contingent played though.

**geysir** · 19/04/2013, 6:43 PM

Originally Posted by Gather round

Those two reasons are completely separate surely? Spain just want to avoid Gib, they'd have little reason per se to shun Kosova or Guernsey. They could do a deal as Azerbaijan and Armenia did in Euro 2008.

In the current European qualifying for Brazil 2014, the 53 teams will play a total of 268 matches.

Imagine if, in a much expanded UEFA, there were 13 groups each of only five teams, with winners alone progressing. The number of qualifiers would actually fall to 260.

That's a thought,
but I'm leaning towards a minnow cull. Gibraltar is the last minnow to break the back. It's starting to get ridiculous when you have a country like Kosova still out in the cold. If the minnow is good enough, they'll survive the cull.

**Gather round** · 19/04/2013, 7:13 PM

Originally Posted by geysir

That's a thought, but I'm leaning towards a minnow cull. Gibraltar is the last minnow to break the back. It's starting to get ridiculous when you have a country like Kosova still out in the cold. If the minnow is good enough, they'll survive the cull

As you said, Kosova's exclusion is largely due to Serbia and Russia's politicking. Which will tend to fade in the next few years. It hasn't really anything to do with the claims of other minnows.

If the cull's unnecessary, why have it?

**geysir** · 19/04/2013, 8:13 PM

Originally Posted by Gather round

As you said, Kosova's exclusion is largely due to Serbia and Russia's politicking. Which will tend to fade in the next few years. It hasn't really anything to do with the claims of other minnows.

If the cull's unnecessary, why have it?

It's not a question of necessity, it's more a question of quality of competition and a minnow taking that competition as serious as they are capable.
The minnows will benefit, the actual qualification competition will benefit, the standard of the lowest seeds will improve. There's an incentive to improve the standard. I have mentioned (to the disbelief of some on this forum) that the standard of football in the Faroe islands would benefit/improve if they had a proper indoor football facilities for all-year round coaching/training and competition, especially with the high/secondary school students, they need the financial support for that.
Some UEFA ranking points are too easily earned, even the current play-off standard gets distorted because of the gap between the quality of the 6th seeds. A minimum standard of competence and support from UEFA for a minnow to reach that minimum standard could be much more beneficial to the minnows than the current free-for-all system.

The European Cup transformed into the CL format has benefitted from a culling process, teams from the smaller leagues get good support from UEFA to compete in the early rounds and afaiaa the supporters of the teams in the lower ranked leagues think it's rational enough to earn the right to proceed to the more competitive qualification rounds against the better teams.

**Gather round** · 19/04/2013, 8:51 PM

Correct me if otherwise G, but aren't you suggesting what's basically a two-tier system, with a couple of groups of minnows detached from everyone else? Now that might marginally benefit the main qualifying competition, in that there won't be many 10-0 thrashings; but it doesn't outweigh the real disadvantages for those who miss out- less attractive games and thus income, maybe less games period.

Not convinced by the club football analogy. Actually there are various levels of exemption in the Champions League, five for this year's competition ranging from Linfield's entry to Chelsea's. Something similar in international football would be hierarchical mini-leagues rather than parallel groups. Spain, Germany and England might well fancy that, but I'm guessing you wouldn't?

**geysir** · 20/04/2013, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by Gather round

Correct me if otherwise G, but aren't you suggesting what's basically a two-tier system, with a couple of groups of minnows detached from everyone else? Now that might marginally benefit the main qualifying competition, in that there won't be many 10-0 thrashings; but it doesn't outweigh the real disadvantages for those who miss out- less attractive games and thus income, maybe less games period.

I don't have any fixed ideas re format. And I'm not into nitpicking various ideas.
In the 2015 Women's World Cup qualification, the 8 lowest teams go into 2 preliminary groups of 4 teams, with the top 2 from each prelim group going through to the Qual rounds proper. 4 of the lowest 8 are culled. The Faroes (entering the Women's WC for the first time) topped their prelim group, well ahead of much 'bigger' football entities. How they progress in their qual group remains to be seen, but we can say they have earned their right to be there, they have gained real competitive experience, they are utilising their current financial resources efficiently and have demonstrated that they are a worthy experiment, worthy of further investing/support by UEFA.
I like the idea of UEFA money being used to support football structures in the minnow areas and there is something in that one way they can get income is by playing in the qualifiers. An other scenario for new teams like Gibraltar is to give them the target of being better than e.g. San Marino and Andorra, in a preliminary group. It's not that radical a concept is it? It means that a minnow has to demonstrate some standard and their federation be given enough finance to compete at the minnow level.

Not convinced by the club football analogy. Actually there are various levels of exemption in the Champions League, five for this year's competition ranging from Linfield's entry to Chelsea's. Something similar in international football would be hierarchical mini-leagues rather than parallel groups. Spain, Germany and England might well fancy that, but I'm guessing you wouldn't?

The exemptions for entry to the CL are not that relevant to the bigger picture of the basic evolving CL competition format.
The analogy for small teams having to earn the right to play the bigger teams, pervades most every cup and league competition in football. At present there is no minimum standard criteria for a minnow in the (male) UEFA qualifier zone.That issue is worth exploring.
I'm not preaching ideas to convince others who like it as it is. I am not even convinced myself.

**NeverFeltBetter** · 24/05/2013, 1:18 PM

Gibraltar are now a full member of UEFA: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22657481

They will not be drawn in the same qualifying groups as Spain.

**BonnieShels** · 24/05/2013, 1:24 PM

An awfully written article. But yay for them I guess. I don't like the way countries get away with not playing other countries. Sport is meant to be above politics.

**NeverFeltBetter** · 24/05/2013, 1:40 PM

I am pretty ignorant of just how difficult an issue this is in Spain - Would they go as far as refuse to play in Gibraltar for example? - but FIFA/UEFA have a track record of just trying to make potentially tricky ties not happen, or at least be played on neutral ground.

I mean, this is nothing. Imagine if Israel qualifies for the Qatar World Cup.

**ArdeeBhoy** · 24/05/2013, 2:11 PM

Yes.

It's called the real world Bonnie.

And no chance Israel will ever compete in a World Cup in an Arab country IMO.

**peadar1987** · 24/05/2013, 2:52 PM

From the BBC article, it appears there is a team in Gibraltar called Man United FC. Anybody else think that the people who would name their club that probably wrote the constitution in crayon on the back of a Sesame Street colouring book?!

**NeverFeltBetter** · 24/05/2013, 2:57 PM

I was reading about them in some other article about Gibraltarian football today. Busby approved apparently, founded at the height of the "Babes" era. Lincoln FC used to be "Newcastle United Gibraltar" according to Wiki.

**Charlie Darwin** · 24/05/2013, 8:24 PM

Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter

Gibraltar are now a full member of UEFA: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22657481

They will not be drawn in the same qualifying groups as Spain.

Did we not ascertain recently that in fact the FAI was one of the three to vote in favour of Gibraltar's membership in 2007? I think it may have been Stutts who attended a meeting where members of the GFA spoke.

**BonnieShels** · 24/05/2013, 11:43 PM

Sure there's a Boca Juniors, a Chelsea and even a Hound Dog FC.

**geysir** · 24/05/2013, 11:47 PM

Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Did we not ascertain recently that in fact the FAI was one of the three to vote in favour of Gibraltar's membership in 2007? I think it may have been Stutts who attended a meeting where members of the GFA spoke.

It's reported in every account of the 2007 vote that the 3 associations who voted for Gibraltar were the WFA, SFA and the FA.
Stutts heard different from the Gibraltar rep in London.

We won't sleep until this matter is ascertained.

**Charlie Darwin** · 24/05/2013, 11:48 PM

John Delaney's reputation is at stake.

**DerekMcKenna** · 25/05/2013, 12:25 AM

I read a Spanish article the other day that said the Spanish FA had threatened to pull all of their teams from European competitions (Champions lge, Europa etc) if Gibraltar got association status. I am looking forward to hearing their response!

**Stuttgart88** · 25/05/2013, 6:45 PM

I'll email him on Tuesday and ask. But he did say that the Irish have always supported them and even waived their share of the U19 gate money in solidarity.