Ireland V Germany 12th October & Faroe Islands 16th October 2012 - World Cup 2014 Q

[SkStu]

He achieved results from day 1 Peadar but in a very wrong way. A way that eliminated playing even a semblance of football, founded on a mistaken belief that "Irish players cant pass", largely ignored youth and form players, ignored our creative players, and was rooted in a flawed and dated philosophy. We need a manager that fundamentally believes we have good players and asks and encourages them to play. While Mick Mc mightn't be the answer, he's the last manager that did this and incorporated tactical discipline as part of that.

Say what you like Trapaholics, we've had far worse players and teams in our history that would never have produced what we did against the Gerries on Friday. Ignoring the fundamental problems where blame must lie with the FAI "vision" for our player development, Friday was not good enough in any way. Trap has got to go. Ignorant, lazy, dinosaur.

[gastric]

Brian Kerr's thoughts.


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...325226512.html

Stu, Would agree with most of your last comment, but I think McCarthy is the man to replace Trap if he ever stands down. He is able to get the best out of his players and after Jack, he worked hard to rebuild the team and was quite successful. The reason I think he is a good choice is because he has actually done it before and since he stepped down as Irish manager, it could be argued that we have struggled, manager wise. What I am saying is, we need an experienced proven manager now, rather than someone who may struggle with the job

[shaneker]

Well you either stick with your man or not. Trap in your opinion was good now he aint - whats the difference? IMHO he was rubbish from day one and I was against his appointment from the beginning - my view hasnt changed but yours has - funny that

Bizarre way to think, if you ask me. Teams change, the wider game changes and circumstances are not the same as they were in the past. Qualifying was crucial for us, and the results (although achieved in a desperately basic way) allowed us to do that. However, the team is evolving and Trap's system is getting further and further behind the rest of Europe. That combined with a record home defeat means that, for me, a change needs to be made now, or soon.
Also, coming out with nonsense like 'muck footy for the ole oles' or whatever makes any valid argument you might have sound fairly childish.

[geysir]

Worth noting that even when we beat Oman 4-1 they had 56% of the possession.

But we strung together a record breaking 400 passes

[geysir]

Unusual that McGeady is so verbose, what it does say is that he has no belief in what's happening and every cell of his body expressed it on Friday night.

"A couple of years ago, we might have been able to get something out of this game," he said. "We played against Italy, France and teams like that [in Trapattoni's previous campaigns] and we always did OK. What's different? Possibly the way we play, I don't know … It's difficult to say but I just know there is a difference. Just look at the results. A couple of years ago, we were unbeaten in a good few games. We were playing some of the top teams and we were drawing or almost sneaking wins. Against Germany, we just got put to the sword.
"Maybe something has got to change in the way we play … possibly putting more onus on us having the ball, instead of playing for flick-ons and second balls. We changed to 4-3-3 against Germany but we never really had the ball and when we did, it was two, three passes and then going long. It doesn't really suit how that system is supposed to work."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2...-faroe-islands

[bennocelt]

Because the situation has changed. Players have retired. John O'Shea has died and just not realised it yet. Confidence is low. Trap was the right man for the job when he was appointed (although I think the money could have been better spent on a cheaper manager and investment in grassroots and the LOI). Now, perhaps he isn't so suitable. To say he was rubbish from day one is, in my opinion, getting a bit hysterical. The shambles on Friday night doesn't change the fact that he took a very mediocre team to two playoffs and a continental finals they didn't have any right to be at on paper.

Not performances. The style of play has been like that from day one. The only good performance - the Paris job - was what the players decided to do themselves. And as for the Euros, anyone would have got us to that finals - beating he likes of Slovakia, Estonia and Armenia - wow. Fact we haven beaten a top 16 team in ages says a lot. And remember even Stanton got a better result against the Germans

[pineapple stu]

We've had the Genesis report which was largely ignored

And rightly so, cos it was utter tripe.

It's hard to know what will happen in the next, say, ten years to change things. Someone earlier said that this is what like being a Scotland fan is; I think we're going to go the way of Wales.

The Premiership is a technically poor league, but can compensate by being financially rich enough to attract players to keep its profile up. I think Germany and Spain have something like 100 times the top-level coaches that England does.

The situation in Ireland I think is improving; there's more ex-LoI players in the squad than in the past 30 or 40 years I think. The likes of Paul Corry, Wes Hoolahan, Gary Dicker and a few others are maybe more capable technically than anyone in our squad at the moment (though being technically adept isn't worth a call-up in and of itself). With a proper fully-pro League of Ireland, we'd have control over our own players and their coaching, and with a similar set-up to the likes of Denmark or Sweden, there's no reason we'd not be able to get to their level. Instead, the FAI are bleeding the LoI instead of nurturing it - the likes of entry fees significantly exceeding prize money for most teams being the best example.

Unfortunately, people's response to the two qualifying results so far - and any more to follow - would be to dismiss the national team and follow "their" Premiership team exclusively. That's going to start a vicious circle - the national team'll get worse, so people will abandon it and follow the Premiership, so the national team'll get worse, so...

In short, we're screwed.

[bennocelt]

Unfortunately, people's response to the two qualifying results so far - and any more to follow - would be to dismiss the national team and follow "their" Premiership team exclusively. That's going to start a vicious circle - the national team'll get worse, so people will abandon it and follow the Premiership, so the national team'll get worse, so...

In short, we're screwed.

Or like myself - the LOI, and I havent looked back..........

[tetsujin1979]

Not performances. The style of play has been like that from day one. The only good performance - the Paris job - was what the players decided to do themselves. And as for the Euros, anyone would have got us to that finals - beating he likes of Slovakia, Estonia and Armenia - wow. Fact we haven beaten a top 16 team in ages says a lot. And remember even Stanton got a better result against the Germans

I really am tired of this myth. If it was what the players decided to do themselves, why have they not replicated it since?

[Noelys Guitar]

Unusual that McGeady is so verbose, what it does say is that he has no belief in what's happening and every cell of his body expressed it on Friday night.

"A couple of years ago, we might have been able to get something out of this game," he said. "We played against Italy, France and teams like that [in Trapattoni's previous campaigns] and we always did OK. What's different? Possibly the way we play, I don't know … It's difficult to say but I just know there is a difference. Just look at the results. A couple of years ago, we were unbeaten in a good few games. We were playing some of the top teams and we were drawing or almost sneaking wins. Against Germany, we just got put to the sword.
"Maybe something has got to change in the way we play … possibly putting more onus on us having the ball, instead of playing for flick-ons and second balls. We changed to 4-3-3 against Germany but we never really had the ball and when we did, it was two, three passes and then going long. It doesn't really suit how that system is supposed to work."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2...-faroe-islands

The players had a meeting on Saturday without Trapatonni present. Its a lot like the situation at Shamrock Rovers earlier in the season when Garry Twig asked Stephen Kenny not to come into the dressing room for the half time team talk and Kenny was effectively locked out of his own teams dressing room.

[Noelys Guitar]

He achieved results from day 1 Peadar but in a very wrong way. A way that eliminated playing even a semblance of football, founded on a mistaken belief that "Irish players cant pass", largely ignored youth and form players, ignored our creative players, and was rooted in a flawed and dated philosophy. We need a manager that fundamentally believes we have good players and asks and encourages them to play. While Mick Mc mightn't be the answer, he's the last manager that did this and incorporated tactical discipline as part of that.

Say what you like Trapaholics, we've had far worse players and teams in our history that would never have produced what we did against the Gerries on Friday. Ignoring the fundamental problems where blame must lie with the FAI "vision" for our player development, Friday was not good enough in any way. Trap has got to go. Ignorant, lazy, dinosaur.

Its football forelock tugging or worse the King has a shiny Armani suit made of gold and only the fools can't see it. Like yourself Stu I've seen much worse teams than we have now get results down the years. Limited players denying space to their technically much better opponents. We do not have a bad squad of players but this manager and his apologists continue making this claim.

[geysir]

I really am tired of this myth. If it was what the players decided to do themselves, why have they not replicated it since?

Because Trap puts mogadon in their pre-match drinks to make sure such indiscipline never happens again?

In 1987 I thought Charlton's tactics were cavemanish, I was proved right many times but none more so than 1994 and afterwards, which also proved I was right all along. Occasional deviations from that script were purely incidental and managed despite the crude interventions of Charlton

[tricky_colour]

But we strung together a record breaking 400 passes

Did we???

Another thing is Germany only had 55.4% 'Territorial Advantage' despite having 75% of the possession.
I was not sure what the norm was for that so I looked at England San Marino, and there England had 84.1%
So in one respect we did almost match the Germans.

I have downloaded the game and re watched it in HD as opposed to a stream quality, I though we played pretty well much of the time,
I think I had the same thing with the Euros, ie it was not as bad as I though live.

Another thing I noted was a lot of people were saying we played hoofball but I didn't see much of that I though we
passed it much more than normal, we actually passed it as often as the Germans did when we had possession!!

242 Total Passes 763
24.9 Possession 75.1

But that is rather meaningless as you would expect that, we just make fewer passes before we lose the ball.


Our pass success of 74.8 means that on the second pass we have 74.8 x74.8 = 55.95% but on the third pass we have 41.8% chance of
having the ball, thus by the third pass we have lost the ball!!

Contrast with Germany, with a passing Success of 92.4 we get:-
0.923 (x 0.923)
0.85 ""
0.78 ""
0.72
0.67
0.62
0.57
0.53 ""
0.49 ""

So the Germans can make 9 passes before they are more likely than not
to have lost the ball, we a miserable 3.

[tetsujin1979]

The players had a meeting on Saturday without Trapatonni present. Its a lot like the situation at Shamrock Rovers earlier in the season when Garry Twig asked Stephen Kenny not to come into the dressing room for the half time team talk and Kenny was effectively locked out of his own teams dressing room.

any link for this?

[Noelys Guitar]

any link for this?

Do not have a link but the meeting definitely took place early Saturday afternoon.. Which was why Trapatonni was asked about it at the press conference. He not being there denied it ever took place.
From the Sunday Indo
He denied reports that the players had met without the manager yesterday but confirmed that he had talked to the squad in the team hotel in Portmarnock on Friday night in an attempt to discover what was wrong and rebuild their confidence. "I'm not holding them back. I have never told them not to attack."

[tricky_colour]

Not much point locking Trap out, he would not be able to understand them anyway!!

[tetsujin1979]

Do not have a link but the meeting definitely took place early Saturday afternoon.. Which was why Trapatonni was asked about it at the press conference. He not being there denied it ever took place.
From the Sunday Indo
He denied reports that the players had met without the manager yesterday but confirmed that he had talked to the squad in the team hotel in Portmarnock on Friday night in an attempt to discover what was wrong and rebuild their confidence. "I'm not holding them back. I have never told them not to attack."

ah right, I missed the press conference yesterday

[tricky_colour]

Time for interesting stat of the day.

We had 4 shots on target 2 of them occurred in the 7 minutes Robbie Brady was on the pitch, he play a part in both of them,
one of them resulted in a goal.

So average time per shot on target with Brady on the pitch, 3.5 minutes.
an average time per shot on target minus Brady on the pitch 41.5 minutes.

Thus we have nearly 12 times more shots on target with Brady on the pitch.

Average time per goal with Brady on the pitch 7 minutes.
Average time per goal without Brady on the pitch infinite.

Time between goals conceded with Brady on the pitch 13 minute 10 seconds
Time between goals with Brady on the pitch, infinite.

Thus one can calculate that if we start Brady on the away leg we will beat German 13-0 assuming we get a couple of minutes of extra time.

That I think would mean we can top the Group whatever German do with overall goals 14-6 in our favour.

[SwanVsDalton]

Don't know if we're still interested in team news - but Robbie made the plane for the Faroes, while Andy 'Consolation' Keogh has been ruled out with concussion.

[pineapple stu]

while Andy 'Consolation' Keogh has been ruled out with concussion.

What, from heading the goal?