Eligibility Rules, Okay

[ArdeeBhoy]

I refer you to my last post.


People in glass houses and all that.

Plus you're the one looking continually to find pedantic fault with every post or failing to acknowledge your own overt contradictions of which recently there's been many!

[Newryrep]

That has me more confused

ATM, I can handle an Irish only identity and an Irish one with a British overlord tinge, for protection purposes from the mad Gaels/Rome/nasty bigoted nationalists/GAA and gombeen shifty southern politicians.

Other options are Northern Irish which I understand as a Cork republic type thing, not serious enough to consider independence.

So you're left with Northern Irish but British and Northern Irish but Irish.
We can't give you the Ulster identity because there is no Ulster identity, maybe there's a bástard brew called Ulster lite, claiming it to be the real Ulster brew.

Maybe instead of a language analogy, you can give me a brewing analogy?

maybe a triganometry one then

Some people in NI view themselves as Northern irish - Northern Irish being a sub set of British along with Scottish welsh etc Think one big cicle (british) with 4 separae smaller circles (eng Scot welsh NI) inside it

some people in NI view them selves as Irish as well as british. Think one big circle (British ) with 3 separate smaller circles in it and one separate smaller circles 1/4 in 3/4 out (irish)

Some people in NI think there are 2 cirlces not connected at all, one Irish and one British along with all the other sovereign circles french German etc

Hope that clears it up, the triganometry lesson is now over*

the above is of course complicated by the fact that one of the smaller circles (england) actullly isnt very small at all ..............and will inevitably take precedent over the other 3 ciricles so much in fact that it is frequently interchangeable with the big circle. (but that is a different arguement all together)

[gastric]

Dannys blog can be summed up as follows
I am not, never was ,never will Northern irish
I am an irishman
The End

NB while understanding this view does not concur with and views himself as Northern irish and or irish and or British, which most people understand

Your ill informed noncesnce you posted meant you either didnt read or understand Danny's Excellent blog on it which encapulates the thoughts of irishmen born in Northernn Ireland.

the highlights being



Their country if they are nationalist has its capital city as Dublin - IT REALLY IS THAT SIMPLE



I as a nationalist have no wish to have anything to do with the IFA NI football team, the rubbich posted here regularily and elsewhere that 'if they changed their anthem, changed their ground changed their flag are just red herrings - there is nothing the IFA can do that would make me give allegience to their team

I am not Northern Irish and would NEVER describe myself as such



maybe 'soccer' isnt for you then, international football is an expression of identy, which is the exact reason NI supportors are so vociferous as its practically the only expression they have

The appointment of MON was because he was the best candidate, the GA one was a PR sop to NI fans

Positive discrimination my arse



Utter tripe, I actually agree with NB, I would have no problem with players having to declare at 18 which international team they wish to play for.dont you know your nationailty at 18 ? It will never happen though

the IFA and their fans have made great strides in the past years and it would be churlish not to acknowlege it but the bottom line is its not for me


And it football BTW not soccer

While I disagree with some of the points you make, I think your opinion sums up my frustrations. You live in NI, but you feel that the NI team does not represent you. I believe that this is the tragedy of the situation and while I respect your acceptance of it, the reality is that this is wrong. National Associations if they are truly sporting organisations should be representative of the whole community they represent. South African rugby is an example that comes to mind. It has made massive strides in becoming a truly inclusive body. Many problems still exist like the positive discrimination rules, but through a determined effort by all, its identity as a sporting representation of white politics has ended.
In terms of Michael O 'Neill's appointment, was he the best man for the job or did they just feel a Catholic was needed because of the ongoing defections? We will have to agree to disagree on this one.
In relation to your comments about U18s making a decision about nationality, why did FIFA change the rules? All I am saying is that these are the rules, let's not manipulate them to cover up any embarrassment on behalf of NI supporters.
The IFA has made positive tangible strides over the last few years which I acknowledge, but at the heart of my frustrations is one of attitude which NB continues to advocate, a soccer team representative of one community.
Lastly, what's this about the word soccer? You seemingly do not understand that it comes from the term 'Association Football' which was used to distinguish it from 'Rugby Football'. It was good enough a nickname a long time ago and I am happy to continue to use it when I want.

[Not Brazil]

I think your opinion sums up my frustrations. You live in NI, but you feel that the NI team does not represent you. I believe that this is the tragedy of the situation and while I respect your acceptance of it, the reality is that this is wrong.

In terms of Michael O 'Neill's appointment, was he the best man for the job or did they just feel a Catholic was needed because of the ongoing defections? We will have to agree to disagree on this one.

at the heart of my frustrations is one of attitude which NB continues to advocate, a soccer team representative of one community.

You clearly don't understand why proud Irish Nationalists like Newryrep support the Republic Of Ireland.
They must find your comments insulting.

I'm embarrassed for you in your failure to grasp basic identity issues.

MON's appointment had nothing to do with where he says his prayers. Sadly, you sectarianise the debate.

He got the job because the IFA think he's the best man to take the Northern Ireland Senior International team forward at this time. I think they got that wrong, but time will tell.

I resent your ridiculous lies that I advocate a "soccer" team representative of only one side of the community.

I cherish the fact that the Northern Ireland team always has, and always will, contain players from both main traditions in Northern Ireland.

Furthermore I wholly respect the right of those who players who do not identify with the IFA, to express their identity by playing for the FAI.

[DannyInvincible]

While I disagree with some of the points you make, I think your opinion sums up my frustrations. You live in NI, but you feel that the NI team does not represent you. I believe that this is the tragedy of the situation and while I respect your acceptance of it, the reality is that this is wrong.

Why is it wrong? Identity transcends territorial borders. As has been quoted before on this thread, being born in a stable does not make one a horse. The Irish national identity is not confined merely to within the borders of the Irish state. If everyone in Ireland had happily accepted the imposition of a foreign British label on their heads in the decades/centuries before partition, the Irish state would never have achieved independence itself. It achieved independence because the Irish people believed they were something other and that that something other was worth fighting for. Was that also wrong of them to feel that way?

National Associations if they are truly sporting organisations should be representative of the whole community they represent.

Bit of a tautology there. Primarily, NI represent those individuals who seek to express their Northern Irish identity. In some cases, this may not be the case and players may choose to play for NI for realist/pragmatic/careerist reasons, but that's another argument.

In relation to your comments about U18s making a decision about nationality, why did FIFA change the rules?

It was fundamentally motivated by what FIFA felt was a need to protect young players; to prevent associations from "entrapping" hot prospects.

The IFA has made positive tangible strides over the last few years which I acknowledge, but at the heart of my frustrations is one of attitude which NB continues to advocate, a soccer team representative of one community.

I've never seen anything to suggest he does advocate such a position.

[gastric]

You have missed my point. I am totally supportive of anyone who supports us, the more the merrier as far as I am concerned. I have also been consistent in the view that players have the right to play for who ever they want and I have expressed this on this thread. What I did find sad was that Newry rejects the IFA as having any relevancy to him. This is not a condemnation of him, but on what I see as a sign of this organisation's ability to be inclusive, and I will continue to argue is the purpose of any national sporting organisation. The GFA acknowledged the uniqueness of the political situation in NI and I think we have seen much bravery by NI politicians.
Unfortunately, I have will not seen such bravery in the opinions expressed by many on here.
Anyone who would rather see their team continue to become less and less competitive, and not acknowledge the reasons behind this are suspect to me.
I think this issue has not really come to a head yet. We could soon have Wilson and Duffy in defence, Gibson and McClean in midfield and the cries by imany NI supporters complaining about treachery will only grow. Heads in the sand stuff if ever there was.

[DannyInvincible]

What I did find sad was that Newry rejects the IFA as having any relevancy to him.

Are they relevant to him, and, if so, how?

This is not a condemnation of him, but on what I see as a sign of this organisation's ability to be inclusive, and I will continue to argue is the purpose of any national sporting organisation. The GFA acknowledged the uniqueness of the political situation in NI and I think we have seen much bravery by NI politicians.

Unfortunately, I have will not seen such bravery in the opinions expressed by many on here.

So nationalists seeing the IFA as an irrelevance is down to cowardice then rather than the fact that their national identity is better expressed through affiliation with another association? The GFA also acknowledged the right of anyone to identify as either British, Irish or both.

Anyone who would rather see their team continue to become less and less competitive, and not acknowledge the reasons behind this are suspect to me.

Who or what are you referring to exactly? Just speaking generally for football fans, it's only natural that certain principles - be they matters of identity or whatever - take precedence over the level of importance they attribute to their team's competitiveness. Many Ireland fans would object to the inclusion of Stephen Ireland in our squad, not because they view him as inferiorly talented to what we already have, but as a matter of principle due to past behaviour of his they find disagreeable, if not treacherous. If you can't connect with a team, of what value is that team's competitiveness to you?

I think this issue has not really come to a head yet. We could soon have Wilson and Duffy in defence, Gibson and McClean in midfield and the cries by imany NI supporters complaining about treachery will only grow. Heads in the sand stuff if ever there was.

The issue came to a head upon publication of the Kearns judgment in July of 2010. Since then, the IFA have changed their approach in accepting the right of northern-born Irish nationals to play for the FAI and acknowledging that the ball is in their court with regard to making themselves an attractive proposition for the general nationalist communty. What is it you foresee happening?

[Charlie Darwin]

You have missed my point. I am totally supportive of anyone who supports us, the more the merrier as far as I am concerned. I have also been consistent in the view that players have the right to play for who ever they want and I have expressed this on this thread. What I did find sad was that Newry rejects the IFA as having any relevancy to him. This is not a condemnation of him, but on what I see as a sign of this organisation's ability to be inclusive, and I will continue to argue is the purpose of any national sporting organisation.

Brian McDermott in yesterday's Independent expressed his identity as Irish rather than English. Is this a failure on the part of the FA to be inclusive? Or just his own sense of national identity independent of any organising body in football?

[osarusan]

What I did find sad was that Newry rejects the IFA as having any relevancy to him. This is not a condemnation of him, but on what I see as a sign of this organisation's ability to be inclusive, and I will continue to argue is the purpose of any national sporting organisation.

I very much doubt that the IFA is the only example of how Newryrep feels he is not represented by the political or sporting structures in Northern Ireland.

Your suggestion that those who opt for the FAI over the IFA do so because the IFA hasn't made enough of an effort to become inclusive enough for them is actually quite insulting to Northern Irish nationalists. It implies that these players' decisions to play for FAI teams isn't based on their national identity at all, but that they have decided to play for the FAI teams almost as a second choice - and it implies that if the IFA were to become more inclusive, these players would be happy to play for the IFA. It has been pointed out to you by more than one poster on here that there is nothing the IFA could do to make these posters feel that it is the Northern Irish team which represents their sense of nationality on a football pitch. It's not like these posters consider themselves as Northern Irish in all matters other than the IFA teams.

[Newryrep]

While I disagree with some of the points you make, I think your opinion sums up my frustrations. You live in NI, but you feel that the NI team does not represent you.

I dont 'feel' the NI team represents me ? its a phase I am going through ? it will pass in time ?, I have stated that the NI team doesnt represent me, because..............it doesnt. My country has Dublin as its capital, Michael D as its president and Amhrán na bhFiann as its anthem. It cant really be put much simplier - I am not Northern Irish (which is a relatively recent phenominum given the first port of call for those of a british tradition was surprise surprise British)

. I believe that this is the tragedy of the situation and while I respect your acceptance of it, the reality is that this is wrong.

Its a tradegy that I am entitled to Irish citizenship ? That i dont revoke my nationality and embrace the clearly british northern irish tradition?

. National Associations if they are truly sporting organisations should be representative of the whole community they represent. South African rugby is an example that comes to mind. It has made massive strides in becoming a truly inclusive body. Many problems still exist like the positive discrimination rules, but through a determined effort by all, its identity as a sporting representation of white politics has ended.

Would you like to buy some magic beans ? International sport by its definition isbound to have a political aspect especially a world sport like football and to deny it is just fanciful - Cricket/rugby arent even in the same league and thats before you mention their eligibility criteria which makes FIFA rules look strict. Those who say sport and politics dont mix are uusally the ones with least to lose and care little and know little about the actual sport in question.

.
In terms of Michael O 'Neill's appointment, was he the best man for the job or did they just feel a Catholic was needed because of the ongoing defections? We will have to agree to disagree on this one.

He took a LOI side to the group stages of the Europa league and won the title twice he along with Brian Kerr were probalby the 2 most realistic names in the frame - I dont believe Gus Hiddinck and Jose Mouriniio applied for it.

In relation to your comments about U18s making a decision about nationality, why did FIFA change the rules? All I am saying is that these are the rules, let's not manipulate them to cover up any embarrassment on behalf of NI supporters.
The IFA has made positive tangible strides over the last few years which I acknowledge, but at the heart of my frustrations is one of attitude which NB continues to advocate, a soccer team representative of one community.

DI advised youit was to protect younger players and most likelly lobbying from the african nations Manipulate ?, save any embarrassment to the NI fans - do you understand this topic at all ?
NB has always advocated the NI side should be open to everyone. I believe he has acknowedged that it was misguided of the IFA to drag this all the way to Zurich as it comes agross as particulary petty on their behalf to prevent a handfull of players exercising their choice

Lastly, what's this about the word soccer? You seemingly do not understand that it comes from the term 'Association Football' which was used to distinguish it from 'Rugby Football'. It was good enough a nickname a long time ago and I am happy to continue to use it when I want.

This is a football forum, the clue is in the title, trust me for the vast majortity of posters here football would not be misconstrued as rugby nor Gaelic. It is also a world game.

[The Fly]

It cant really be put much simplier - I am not Northern Irish (which is a relatively recent phenominum given the first port of call for those of a british tradition was surprise surprise British)

You don't work for UTV by any chance?

[The Fly]

I'm beginning to think you're not the brightest AB.

Beginning?

[The Fly]

You have missed my point. I am totally supportive of anyone who supports us, the more the merrier as far as I am concerned. I have also been consistent in the view that players have the right to play for who ever they want and I have expressed this on this thread. What I did find sad was that Newry rejects the IFA as having any relevancy to him. This is not a condemnation of him, but on what I see as a sign of this organisation's ability to be inclusive, and I will continue to argue is the purpose of any national sporting organisation. The GFA acknowledged the uniqueness of the political situation in NI and I think we have seen much bravery by NI politicians.
Unfortunately, I have will not seen such bravery in the opinions expressed by many on here.
Anyone who would rather see their team continue to become less and less competitive, and not acknowledge the reasons behind this are suspect to me.
I think this issue has not really come to a head yet. We could soon have Wilson and Duffy in defence, Gibson and McClean in midfield and the cries by imany NI supporters complaining about treachery will only grow. Heads in the sand stuff if ever there was.

If you can bear it, I think it would helpful for you to read through the last 30 pages again.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Beginning?

And??

[Not Brazil]

Beginning?

I was being polite.

[ArdeeBhoy]

So was I.

[Not Brazil]

If any of the Derry wans here fancy a change of direction, and a very challenging career move, this might be just the job for you:

http://irishfa.com/the-ifa/jobs-at-the-ifa/

Circa 22k per annum, and a free tin hat provided.

[geysir]

I refer you to my last post.


People in glass houses and all that.

Plus you're the one looking continually to find pedantic fault with every post or failing to acknowledge your own overt contradictions of which recently there's been many!

You two have a strange relationship, going back years.

Almost as if ....

[Predator]

If anyone happens to be in Limerick over the next few days, they should go to this: http://www.fai.ie/domestic-a-grassro...ll/102423.html

Interestingly, NISFA's Duffy and Harkin both played for the FAI home-based squad very recently. Another St. Columb's lad, McEneff, who plays for Institute, is said to be quite a player and has been on trial with some Scottish clubs this year.

[co. down green]

If any of the Derry wans here fancy a change of direction, and a very challenging career move, this might be just the job for you:

http://irishfa.com/the-ifa/jobs-at-the-ifa/

Circa 22k per annum, and a free tin hat provided.

And it's not costing the IFA a penny, yet another outside funded position.