Does the success of one team in Europe benefit the league as a whole?

[marinobohs]

There's a difference between cheating the rules and cheating people. Clearly Spud is using the latter meaning, and arguing against the former meaning is a bit silly.

No, he compared Shels action with an athlete taking drugs - one is stupid one is illegal. Stu, try reading the posts before suggesting any reply is silly.

[pineapple stu]

The initial post that people (including you) were commenting on was -

They cheated the club faithful by pouring money into chasing glory

I don't see anything wrong in using that definition of the word "cheat".

I don't agree with the athlete comparison.

[Acornvilla]

granted co-effieicents are useful. But they are useful primarily to one team and thereafter only to approximately one quarter of all the teams in Irish football - the ones that get to play in Europe - in a given five year period. What did Shels success do for Kilkenny City? What will a Rovers success do for Longford Town? Its extremely hard to find any tangible benefit.

Craig walsh and don cowan (and a few others)

[A N Mouse]

So when does it become cheating?

Flouting the rules by paying players for secondary roles, they may or may not perform at a club, that's ok.

But blatently having a second contract supercedeing the first official one, that's cheating. Am I close?

No, he compared Shels action with an athlete taking drugs - one is stupid one is illegal. Stu, try reading the posts before suggesting any reply is silly.

Were shels actions illegal? Because an athlete taking drugs is not illegal - sure certain prohibited substances may result in a lifetime ban from the sport if you're caught using - that's cheating by the way.

But I think the point to be taken from the example was that of everyone else is doing it so why can't I.

Also the list of banned substances is subject to change. So in light of the current rules would shels be cheating today?

Back on topic.

I'm all for any loi club progressing to the group stages of a european competition.

I don't think it'll happen this year. While shams are capable of winning next week, there's little hope of them winning by two clear goals. And if they win 1-0 on the night, well we all saw the cup final.

That the chnages last year should mean that from now on it will be a regular occurence for our champions to be similarly positioned to qualify for the el, and it will happen sooner or later.

[peadar1987]

So when does it become cheating?

Flouting the rules by paying players for secondary roles, they may or may not perform at a club, that's ok.

But blatently having a second contract supercedeing the first official one, that's cheating. Am I close?



Were shels actions illegal? Because an athlete taking drugs is not illegal - sure certain prohibited substances may result in a lifetime ban from the sport if you're caught using - that's cheating by the way.

But I think the point to be taken from the example was that of everyone else is doing it so why can't I.

Also the list of banned substances is subject to change. So in light of the current rules would shels be cheating today?

Back on topic.

I'm all for any loi club progressing to the group stages of a european competition.

I don't think it'll happen this year. While shams are capable of winning next week, there's little hope of them winning by two clear goals. And if they win 1-0 on the night, well we all saw the cup final.

That the chnages last year should mean that from now on it will be a regular occurence for our champions to be similarly positioned to qualify for the el, and it will happen sooner or later.

As far as I know, there were no financial regulations like the 65% cap when Shels were spending more than they were taking in. If they spent that much on wages now, it would have to circumvent the 65% cap somehow and therefore be cheating. Back then, it wasn't getting round any rules, so was just stupid. There is actually a slightly vague line though, as Bohs' dodgy dealings a few years back to increase their overall income by moving money to (I think) Albion and back again, and increase the 65% cap without any actual extra income is cheating in my book.

[BonnieShels]

Good thing the book was thrown at them in that case.

[legendz]

Is The Star accurate with their figure of €3.6m for Rovers if they get through to the play-off round?

[peadar1987]

Good thing the book was thrown at them in that case.

The view out Nutsy's window when the story broke.

[BonnieShels]

Groundhog day for nutsy.

[Spudulika]

Let me support PS while also supporting what I pretty clearly said - they were cheating the people following the club, cheating the club itself. Ollie and well, Ollie, did some dreadful things (lots of other clubs can row in there I know) and while skimming on tickets or borrowing massive amounts on future possible income might not be archetypal cheating, though it easily falls into the category of cheating those who believe that their club is going the right way about things.

The athlete analogy is to say whether this can be deemed cheating or stupid when others are doing the same thing. Was Ben Johnson cheating or unlucky in that he was caught in 1988, especially when 3 of the first 4 were also caught, and 7 of the 8 finallists were done for doping at one time or another? Did they do it to cheat or keep up with the rest, or were they just stupid and ill informed? Shels could have built in a more sustainable way but decided to speed things up by using their own form of steroids, as in 1988, the fans were cheated from seeing an honest spectacle.

If a LOI team were to make the group stage of the EL or CL, it would boost football as a whole in Ireland, though only for as long as they lasted and as long as the FAI got off their rearends to do something, which means nothing will happen. BATE Borisov turned around from being beaten by Bohs to being a group stage club and winning matches there, but the Belarus league hasn't lifted itself. In a parallel way the Cypriot league has improved itself by building from the ground up and engaging wealthy locals (as well as russkis who want to avoid/evade/plan taxes).

[Charlie Darwin]

Is The Star accurate with their figure of €3.6m for Rovers if they get through to the play-off round?

Clubs that make the group stages of the Europa League can expect to make 2-3 million.

I think it's interesting that in a thread primarily about money, you're the first person to bring up an actual figure.

[maksimir]

Clubs that make the group stages of the Europa League can expect to make 2-3 million.

I think it's interesting that in a thread primarily about money, you're the first person to bring up an actual figure.

I believe (roughish figures) these are pretty close:

640,000 for the group stages (set fee) +
60,000 bonus per game +
140,000 per group match win +
70,000 per group match draw
etc.

So if an Irish side got to the group stages and had six games and won 1, drew 2 and lost 3 they'd roughly get 1.28 million from UEFA alone? Even with gate receipts sponser bonuses and TV money it would be pushing the 3.6 million figure. Now if they moved their home games to the Aviva then this may reach the figure and drawing a German team helps - they're TV companies are famous for throwing money at teams so they switch to 5 pm kick-offs, etc.

[peadar1987]

This is from a very tenuous unreliable source (Championship Manager), but in a European game, are the gate receipts split 50:50 between the two teams, or does the home team get it all? Was this ever the case outside my computer?!

[redrevival]

This is from a very tenuous unreliable source (Championship Manager), but in a European game, are the gate receipts split 50:50 between the two teams, or does the home team get it all? Was this ever the case outside my computer?!

Home team keep the gate receipts.

[WexCar]

Is The Star accurate with their figure of €3.6m for Rovers if they get through to the play-off round?

This may help clarify

At end of article: (these are figures for last season)

Some €55m was allocated exclusively to the UEFA Champions League play-off round, meaning each of the 20 sides participating in the play-offs earned a fixed amount of €2.1m.

[DannyInvincible]

This is from a very tenuous unreliable source (Championship Manager), but in a European game, are the gate receipts split 50:50 between the two teams, or does the home team get it all? Was this ever the case outside my computer?!

I'm not sure. Hold on 'til I check my copy of Football Manager 2011 for confrimation...

[marinobohs]

Let me support PS while also supporting what I pretty clearly said - they were cheating the people following the club, cheating the club itself. Ollie and well, Ollie, did some dreadful things (lots of other clubs can row in there I know) and while skimming on tickets or borrowing massive amounts on future possible income might not be archetypal cheating, though it easily falls into the category of cheating those who believe that their club is going the right way about things.

The athlete analogy is to say whether this can be deemed cheating or stupid when others are doing the same thing. Was Ben Johnson cheating or unlucky in that he was caught in 1988, especially when 3 of the first 4 were also caught, and 7 of the 8 finallists were done for doping at one time or another? Did they do it to cheat or keep up with the rest, or were they just stupid and ill informed? Shels could have built in a more sustainable way but decided to speed things up by using their own form of steroids, as in 1988, the fans were cheated from seeing an honest spectacle.

If a LOI team were to make the group stage of the EL or CL, it would boost football as a whole in Ireland, though only for as long as they lasted and as long as the FAI got off their rearends to do something, which means nothing will happen. BATE Borisov turned around from being beaten by Bohs to being a group stage club and winning matches there, but the Belarus league hasn't lifted itself. In a parallel way the Cypriot league has improved itself by building from the ground up and engaging wealthy locals (as well as russkis who want to avoid/evade/plan taxes).

Fine RE shels-although it was not cheating as most here define it - no rules were broken by Shels. Totally disagree RE athletics thing (and appears to contradict above clarification). What Ben Johnsn did was cheating - he broke the rules of the sport. What Shels did was stupid - no rules broken. Incidentally, issue for another day but what Ollie Byrne was doing was hardly a state secret (even if extent of it was) but dont recall any opposition from Shels fans
So an Irish club qualifying for group stages would boost football here but as (in your opinion) FAI wont get off rearends it wont boost football here ?

[Spudulika]

Fine RE shels-although it was not cheating as most here define it - no rules were broken by Shels. Totally disagree RE athletics thing (and appears to contradict above clarification). What Ben Johnsn did was cheating - he broke the rules of the sport. What Shels did was stupid - no rules broken. Incidentally, issue for another day but what Ollie Byrne was doing was hardly a state secret (even if extent of it was) but dont recall any opposition from Shels fans
So an Irish club qualifying for group stages would boost football here but as (in your opinion) FAI wont get off rearends it wont boost football here ?

I didn't want to be very obvious about Ollie's biscuit tin, I never would have believed it until I saw it first hand the day before the KR game and then before the Hajduk one. I know there is a long history of this in sports (Mill Street was famous for this), though most businesses will try to hive off some petty cash for varios types of payments.

The athletics comparison came from a conversation I had with someone a few years back in regards to "steroid finance" and how he saw it happening in Ireland from top to bottom. A sort of get rich quick process with long lasting and possibly fatal consequences. Financial doping goes on all the time, keeping up with the Joneses is part and parcel of humanity. Clubs do it and those who tried to compete with Shels suffered as a result. Though as you rightly point out, there weren't too many voices of discontent when all was well, this goes down to the control the man himself held.

A club getting into a group of the EL or CL would boost football in Ireland, but it won't last unless the FAI and LOI sustain it. As with Shels back in 2004, full house for the match with Hajduk and then a few days later a tough match with Derry and less than a thousand (if I remember rightly). We've all discussed this on numerous threads, it isn't just one obstacle that will kill the momentum, though a bit of leadership will go a long way.

[Dodge]

As with Shels back in 2004, full house for the match with Hajduk and then a few days later a tough match with Derry and less than a thousand (if I remember rightly)

Nowhere near a full house for the Hajduk game. You might be thinking of the crowd that went to Lansdowne to see Deportivo. The principle remains, of course.

ROvers making group stages will boost them, and make it harder for Pats to compete with them for sponsors, players and fans. For that reason, I have to hope for a Copenhagen win tonight.

For the record the following teams have been one game away from UEFA/Europa group stages; Shels (v Lille) in 2004, Cork (v Slavia Prague) in 2005, Derry (v PSG) in 2006, Pats (v Hertha Berlin & Steau Bucharest) in 2008 & 2009. So the 'breakthrough' has been coming.

[Spudulika]

Over 9,000 tickets were sold for the Hajduk game, that would push it close to a full house, but you're right it's not a full house. Lansdowne was a revelation, though you're right, the follow on for the league wasn't there.