Does the success of one team in Europe benefit the league as a whole?

**desaintsno.12** · 28/07/2011, 9:46 AM

Originally Posted by HulaHoop

All this nonsense about how a team would dominate for years if they got the millions in prize money from getting to the group stages is very annoying. Obviously none of you remember the last 10 or so years when we had Shelbourne spending millions, Cork spending millions, Drogheda spending millions, Bohs spending millions and even Pats spent a few million when Kellegher took over. Now did any of these dominate forever? No they didn't, they all won leagues alright but dominate - no. If Rovers or any club get to the groups stages in europe the resulting prize money would have no more of an effect on us than it did when Shels/Bohs/Drogheda/Cork/Pats had millions pumped into them over the last decade. The only difference being we might spend the money more wisely than the other clubs did.

its not really the same. That was in a time when money was far far easier to come by for clubs. Very very different world now. No teams will splash cash like that again. if Rovers come into serious cash they will be miles ahead financially with no team being able to spend anything even near what they can

**peadar1987** · 28/07/2011, 9:57 AM

Originally Posted by desaintsno.12

its not really the same. That was in a time when money was far far easier to come by for clubs. Very very different world now. No teams will splash cash like that again. if Rovers come into serious cash they will be miles ahead financially with no team being able to spend anything even near what they can

I don't think that was really his point. He was saying that teams in the past have spent big, and sure they got success, but it didn't mean a whitewash over teams who spent less.

**desaintsno.12** · 28/07/2011, 10:07 AM

ye but there was always another team that had a few bob coming around the corner. Plus Rovers have been given a far better infastructure then the other teams had.

**fionnsci** · 28/07/2011, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by SkStu

what benefit is it to St. Pats if any other team in the league does well?

Improves how the public views the league, improves the co-efficient, attracts extra publicity..... how does it not benefit St Pat's?

**Jicked** · 28/07/2011, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by fionnsci

Improves how the public views the league, improves the co-efficient, attracts extra publicity..... how does it not benefit St Pat's?

Its amazing how short sighted people are. If a team made the group stages there'd be a lot of really obvious boosts to every club in the league. To start with, the profile of the League would be much higher, as every barstooler in the country will know the qualifying team reasonably well. That will allow the FAI to push for more sponsorship for the League on the back of increased publicity, and every club would see a bit of that through prize-money. There'd be a whole host of other opportunities for any well run club to take advantage of as well.

**peadar1987** · 28/07/2011, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by desaintsno.12

ye but there was always another team that had a few bob coming around the corner. Plus Rovers have been given a far better infastructure then the other teams had.

But as other people have mentioned, Shams doing well in Europe improves the league's coefficient, increases interest across the board, and generates more advertising and TV revenue, which is split between the clubs. And who's to say that Shams' success wouldn't spur someone else to invest in another one of the league's teams? One team has to make the breakthrough to push the league forwards, or else we'll always be stuck in a rut. If it's not Shams, then it'll be Cork, or Derry, or Monaghan. The rest of the league has to swallow any parochialism and recognise that in the long run, success internationally is good for everyone.

**Mr A** · 28/07/2011, 11:28 AM

Maybe you're right, but I don't think Rovers making the group stages would bring a single extra person through the gates in any game not involving Rovers.

Maybe there would be a small impact on league sponsorship and therefore prize-money, but it's really conjecture. And the extra money might mean Rovers are untouchable for a few years which may damage one of the leagues great strengths- that nobody manages to dominate.

**peadar1987** · 28/07/2011, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by Mr A

Maybe you're right, but I don't think Rovers making the group stages would bring a single extra person through the gates in any game not involving Rovers.

I live in hope. If the bandwagon jumpers go through the gates of the Carlisle, Terryland, or the Brandywell to watch an actual domestic game, I think the chances are higher that they'll come back than if they were only there for an exhibition against some foreign side's reserves.

Maybe there would be a small impact on league sponsorship and therefore prize-money, but it's really conjecture. And the extra money might mean Rovers are untouchable for a few years which may damage one of the leagues great strengths- that nobody manages to dominate.

Of course it's conjecture, but for me, the league's in a poor enough state that hoping for something to shake things up isn't such a bad thing. Maybe it's a product of the team I support. The best Bray can ever realistically hope for in the short to medium term is perhaps 3rd or 4th place in the league. It makes no real difference to us which particular teams are ahead of and behind us! A supporter of Sligo, Pat's, Derry or Dundalk might feel differently.

**Jicked** · 28/07/2011, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by Mr A

Maybe you're right, but I don't think Rovers making the group stages would bring a single extra person through the gates in any game not involving Rovers.

Maybe there would be a small impact on league sponsorship and therefore prize-money, but it's really conjecture. And the extra money might mean Rovers are untouchable for a few years which may damage one of the leagues great strengths- that nobody manages to dominate.

No-one is expecting a group of 300 people to suddenly go along to Limerick v. Salthill if Rovers make the Europa League group stages. But it will help bring money in to the game in Ireland, through TV money, sponsorship and you'd also see more good players playing in the league (we would be able to bring in better quality players, leaving some of our players to filter out to other teams). That money will go to other clubs, and if they're well run they can spend it on improving facilities, promotion, or developing youth structures which over time will bring in more fans. It would be a slow, incremental thing, but is the one way we might actually advance the league instead of hoping for a sugar daddy to buy up a half dozen clubs.

**harleyleeds** · 28/07/2011, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by peadar1987

. And who's to say that Shams' success wouldn't spur someone else to invest in another one of the league's teams?

One team has to make the breakthrough

The rest of the league has to swallow any parochialism and recognise that in the long run, success internationally is good for everyone.

Shams success wouldnt spur someone else to invest in one of the leagues other teams, there Ive said it.

Id prefer it to be Mons

Parochialisim is thrown about as a way of putting doen all who disagree with your point but has nothing to do with this, I dont like Shams and wont support them thats football not parochialisim.

**marinobohs** · 28/07/2011, 1:16 PM

Originally Posted by Jicked

No-one is expecting a group of 300 people to suddenly go along to Limerick v. Salthill if Rovers make the Europa League group stages. But it will help bring money in to the game in Ireland, through TV money, sponsorship and you'd also see more good players playing in the league (we would be able to bring in better quality players, leaving some of our players to filter out to other teams). That money will go to other clubs, and if they're well run they can spend it on improving facilities, promotion, or developing youth structures which over time will bring in more fans. It would be a slow, incremental thing, but is the one way we might actually advance the league instead of hoping for a sugar daddy to buy up a half dozen clubs.

Sorry Jicked but that theory has more holes than the Galway defence.What is a much more likely outcome is that one team
(shams) would dominate domestic football which would lead to incresed support for them to the detriment of other clubs. Eventually winner fatigue would set in among shams supporters and crowds would deterierate there also. One club monopolising resources will never lead to a competitive league. shams team of early to mid 1980s possibly greatest example of the trend I mean.

**pineapple stu** · 28/07/2011, 1:17 PM

Originally Posted by marinobohs

One club monopolising resources will never lead to a competitive league.

Dunno about that necessarily. The Rovers in the 80s example is true, but look at how the Norwegian league has developed even after Rosenborg won it 11 or so times in a row after making the CL group stages.

**marinobohs** · 28/07/2011, 1:25 PM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Dunno about that necessarily. The Rovers in the 80s example is true, but look at how the Norwegian league has developed even after Rosenborg won it 11 or so times in a row after making the CL group stages.

Apols Stu, would never work "in Ireland" more appropriate. I have always doubted the Rosenborg model would work here since Shels started to use it as a business model back in the 90's. Competitive League requires a number (greater than 1) of clubs able to compete. Given the largesse attached to Champs Lge group stage it would be impossible for any club here to compete and I certainly suspect that would result in lower crowds mid/longer term.
The idea that the barstoolers will flood back is flawed in that it presumes they are actually football fans

**pineapple stu** · 28/07/2011, 1:31 PM

Shels didn't start to use the Rosenborg model (unless you count "winning stuff" as their model; Rosenborg actually had a plan). Rosenborg won the league for 13 years in a row, so by your reckoning, the Norwegian league wasn't competitive, but it's still gone from around LoI level 25 years ago to something we can only dream of now.

I don't really know the Norwegian mentality that well, but we do seem to be quite the nation of glory-hunters compared to most, so I do think that if Rovers got into the CL group stages, you'd have people from all over the country adopting them as the one Irish team that really matters and just supporting their games in the lead up to the next Super Sunday.

**Acornvilla** · 28/07/2011, 1:35 PM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Dunno about that necessarily. The Rovers in the 80s example is true, but look at how the Norwegian league has developed even after Rosenborg won it 11 or so times in a row after making the CL group stages.

There on the verge of relegation again this season (well lower mid table but a blip could screw them), money isn't everything

Didn't they get relegated a few years ago or nearly at least when they were in the CL group stages?

**pineapple stu** · 28/07/2011, 1:41 PM

They're mid-table half way through the season; hardly "on the verge of relegation".

But that's kind of the point being argued - Rosenborg's success brought increased TV deals, increased interest to the league, more investors, etc, and now the other clubs have caught up.

**harleyleeds** · 28/07/2011, 2:00 PM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

They're mid-table half way through the season; hardly "on the verge of relegation".

But that's kind of the point being argued - Rosenborg's success brought increased TV deals, increased interest to the league, more investors, etc, and now the other clubs have caught up.

So you think UCD will be a better club cos Shams qualify for the group stages of something and I think Sligo Rovers will suffer because of it , only time will tell as I really feel they will win in Tallaght and then we will all find out so putting an end to the speculation.

**marinobohs** · 28/07/2011, 2:00 PM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Shels didn't start to use the Rosenborg model (unless you count "winning stuff" as their model; Rosenborg actually had a plan). Rosenborg won the league for 13 years in a row, so by your reckoning, the Norwegian league wasn't competitive, but it's still gone from around LoI level 25 years ago to something we can only dream of now.

I don't really know the Norwegian mentality that well, but we do seem to be quite the nation of glory-hunters compared to most, so I do think that if Rovers got into the CL group stages, you'd have people from all over the country adopting them as the one Irish team that really matters and just supporting their games in the lead up to the next Super Sunday.

Shels did quote the Rosenborg model as their blueprint (often discussed it with some of their senior officials) and sent people over to see how it was done in Norway
Not too familiar with ins and outs of Norwegian football but how many across the country do you believe would "adopt" shams ? Derry fans ? Sligo fans ? dont see it myself (except UCD fan,of course

), watching shams game on TV (as most will do next week) does not equate with ever entering a LOI ground. General goodwill towards a team is nothing like supporting them (ask Shels post Depotivo) so I doubt that many bandwagon jumpers would climb aboard mid/long term.

Anyway,lets hope we dont get to find out who is right or wrong.

**pineapple stu** · 28/07/2011, 2:02 PM

Originally Posted by marinobohs

Shels did quote the Rosenborg model as their blueprint (often discussed it with some of their senior officials) and sent people over to see how it was done in Norway

So did Genesis. And we all know how that ended up.

**paul_oshea** · 28/07/2011, 2:09 PM

Thing is thats only a fraction of the point being made marinoIsCloserToshels. Tv and add revenue are as any club of Premier League and recently relegated Division 1 teams willl tell you is actually where the real money is made. But still the point is there are other means than bums on seats(or feet on terraces), though it is obviously very important too.