Danny mills' england comments in relation to ireland

[paul_oshea]

ya they are full of foreign players....

[Stuttgart88]

Rugby players in Ireland are just so technically better than their equivalent in England, they're trained and coached vastly differently with different philosophies and its plain to see watching them.

That hasn't at all been apparent in the U20 WC.

If we can't support our own league in this country I think it'd benefit our squad more if they were in better technical leagues than the EPL.

Most of us would prefer to see that alright, but the previous comparison between footy and rugby isn't great. Our best rugby players either play at home or in England, bar some rare exceptions. Where else can they earn a decent living?

Culturally the Irish and English games are similar anyway. The game differs to a degree in France and again in the southern hemisphere, but I don't think the Irish provinces play a vastly different game to the best English clubs, and where they do it's also because of world class imports like Ica Nacewa. We have good structures in Ireland, no doubt, but I think England rugby's structural trough (if it's even that) at the moment is more because of bad governance at RFU level and because the inevitable club vs country conflict is a factor. I say inevitable, because it is inevitable in professional leagues with proper depth - which Ireland doesn't have. We have so far avoided that in Ireland because our elite sides are subsidiary branches of the IRFU. So yes, there are structural disadvantages in English rubgy but I don't think our playing philosophy is much better (or different) to theirs. Our rugby players are just as dependent on the British Isles for their careers as our footballers.

I think it's naive to think that we could wholesale export our footballers to Germany or Italy like we do to the UK.

Personally I think we should change the focus of our underage international sides towards achieving success (however that is benchmarked). The last decade has seen us play U17s at U19 level, U19s at U21 level and U21s at senior level. We have been woefully uncompetitive as a result.

I'm sympathetic to the view that we should work hard on technique and tactical literacy (already underway?) and that the rough & tumble of English football does us no favours. I'm also of the view that Bradys, Gileses and Keanes only come around every so often in a small country, even if we were colonised by Brazil.

[Stuttgart88]

Anyway, I subjected my 5 year old to the English coaching system this morning. It was only his second ever coached football session, in our local park. He started by doing simple exercises but they finished with a "game", with the objective being to encourage passing rather than scoring. (you could only score after completing so many passes).

The kids were divided into 2 groups of 12, and a variation of a six-a-side game was played on 2 small pitches.


At the end, all 24 kids were called up under a tree.

The coach explained what the object of the exercise was, learning to pass to team mates. Then he said that there was one standout example of a guy looking to pass and find space (his words) and he called my little fella up and gave him a medal.

This very proud dad is feeling very positive about English coaching this evening!

[tetsujin1979]

The young lad isn't left footed by any chance?

[Stuttgart88]

No. Does that jeopardise a Tetsujin theory?

[shellyriver]

Seriously, where will this type of guff stop? Its hardly rocket science to pick out of 20 odd young lads whose the best, technically, whose the greediest, the fastest, aware etc. Any young fella worth his salt at this stage of the game will be totally selfish on the ball. He must want the ball, and must want to win. That's all it takes. Technical attributes, touch, formation -- that's all down road.

[Murfinator]

In terms of the under 20's a lot is down to genetics with regards to the southern hemisphere sides. Have the seen the sheer size of the baby boks or all blacks kids, our kids can't compete. They're oceans apart. The Irish kids will bulk up in time, but they can't be expected to compete at that age.

As for why England are doing better, their coaching system is a simple defensive one. Easy to master, difficult to really go anywhere with behind that. The slow lumbering predictable forwards play is rampant throughout the guinness premiership or whatever its called nowadays. I disagree you saying the better english sides could compete technically with the Irish sides, they absolutely could not. Leicester, Bath, Sale etc are all full of bash merchants, big, strong talentless men that make up the core of Englands national team. Northampton tried to play an expansive game last few years and while they're doing ok with it they haven't actually won anything either. Leinsters offloading game at the moment is out of this planet, its more technically astute than anything in this hemisphere and thats not down to Nacewa its down to Sean O Brien and Jamie Heaslip assisted by Sexton practically reinventing the job of his position. Munster equally with a ROG kicking game strangling opposition and the back 3's running angles are beyond anything a premiership side could live with.

I'm not saying English sides haven't had success but the route of that success hasn't been from a strong technical game. Its been from a foundation of doing the basics very very well with a physically very capable group of players. Their forwards are big and tackle hard, their outhalf kicks long and accurately, their wings are incredibly quick. Its simple stuff but difficult for most teams to deal with, the best always will though.
They've never had guys with what you'd call "match intelligence", people like O'Gara or BOD who could do the unorthodox and cut a team open. You could say the same for their soccer team as well, they'll never produce a Messi or an Iniesta. It's not in their culture to develop game intelligence or technical ability.

Again not saying its totally ineffective to train players favouring physicality and discipline over technical ability, just look at what trap is getting out of us. But I think most of us would prefer more technical players available particularly in midfield. The way to do that is to distance ourselves from British coaching systems, have our lads go elsewhere.

[French Toasht]

People speak about coaching and whatnot but ultimately I think the reason why the UK produce such bad players is down to culture. British culture is a tabloid culture, that cherishes famous people for fame alone rather than their talent. Its not coincidence the UK is regarded worldwide as having a wide range of the most awful bands ever seen, none of them musically astute; all of them trying to be stars. This is the land that invented the Popstars / X-Factor / American Idol format, a system designed to churn out textbook singers of established songs, a system designed to override the less glamorous but fundamental element of song writing. The part of music which most would regard as the most difficult and the most critical to excellence.

Soccer is the same, oodles of players over there who know the status of a "footballer" and covet it. Many who are fine athletes who do excellent gym work and can follow instructions to a tee, few whose motivation to play for the love of the game is convincing. Very few british players leave their shores for that reason, they know they won't be a star in another country and will be judged far moreso on their technical ability and football intelligence, of which almost all of them are lacking.

It unfortunately trickles into Ireland. To use a comparison the English rugby squad has a very similar mindset to the English soccer squad, the corresponding leagues as well. But the Irish rugby squad has a vastly different mindset, its stronger, galvinised, focused on teamwork and skillsets. These are guys who are coached well through the system and playing the game for no other reason than the love of it. We have no Hensons, Powells, Cipriani or whatnot in this country showing that tabloid culture is present in British Rugby but not in Irish rugby. We have the same deal in GAA as well

The problem for us is how our soccer league remains so heavily influenced by a UK mindset while our other sports don't. Its been said a million times before but having our players playing in other leagues than England and Scotland would benefit us immensely, its nothing but bad news to have our players coached through the ranks in a culture like that.

Ok I don't know how to multi-quote (can anyone tell me?), but I'm going to try to tease through your points.

As regards your first points, the X-Factor culture you talk about, that exists everywhere now and is not a unique phenomenon to the UK. The Christmas no 1 in Sweden and Denmark will be their winners of pop idol and will have come through an equally manufactured and inorganic process as the British versions. I think British influence on music has been a comparatively positive one. The Britpop era, was the saviour of a forgettable 90s music wise, which was otherwise dominated by boyband pish.

I think one of the main reason Britons don't leave the EPL for foreign shores is for language reasons. I lived in Scandinavia for two years and went with out there without a word of Danish or Swedish and became fluent in a relatively short period due to total immersion. The only time I ever spoke English was to English people who had lived there for over 10 years. The system of teaching foreign languages in UK has failed their students, who leave school after 14 years of education with little ability to converse in the mere basics with a French or Spanish person. This is also coupled with a mindset, whereby they mistakenly believe there is little necessity to have proficiency in any other language as English is the universal language today. (Good luck with that in South America). The second reason most English players do not leave English shores is that their chances of getting action for England are severely curtailed whilst playing abroad. See McManaman, Owen, Hargreaves, Beckham, Woodgate, Ince etc.

There is also the issue that English players tend to be less cultured than European players. I remember Arshavin and Smertin launching scathing attacks on the “geezer” culture in English football and how they felt out of place without many cultural attractions. I think the same applies in reverse with English players abroad, who tend to find it harder to fit in with more cultured and sophisticated players on the continent. Remember how Graeme Le Saux was branded a homosexual by his Chelsea team mates for reading the Guardian?

As regards there being no real tabloid culture with rugby in Ireland? I tend to disagree. Our own Trevor Brennan is has filled more tabloid column inches than Powell or Cipriani combined. I also know more than I care to ever know about who Brian O'Driscoll is dating at the moment. Same exists in the GAA. What Paul Galvin is wearing or what Donal Óg Cusack got up to with other men whilst on holidays is not something I particularly care about, yet the tabloids in Ireland appear to lap it up.


These external factors have little influence on the style of play in the UK and Ireland, rather the causative factor is purely down to coaching in my eyes. Like I said before, its only when I went to tournaments abroad with my football team and saw the contrast in pre-match preparation between Irish sides and our European counterparts; The series of technical drills they were doing as we merely passed the ball cross field and did jogging exercises, was a real eye opener for me that even at the top level of schoolboy football in Ireland we are still lagging light-years behind the coaching kids receive on the continent.

PS- Also with regard to your English v Ireland rugby analogy, I would say the far more salient reason why Irish rugby appears to be in a stronger one than England (which is arguable at best, considering a very young English team are the current 6 Nations champions) is that in Irish rugby, the players are contracted to the IRFU as opposed to the cubs. With English clubs, players belong to the clubs and the clubs are independent of the RFU. This deprives them of the luxury that Leinster and Munster have, whereby Connacht is solely used as an experimental outfit (very much to Connachts detriment) for Munster and Leinster (and to a lesser extent Ulster) to cherry pick the best of upcoming talent in the experimental province. Also it must not be forgotten that club rugby and the grassroots game in Ireland is dying a slow death and suffered terribly since the advent of professionalism.

[Fixer82]

Interesting post Toashteen

[ArdeeBhoy]

Ok I don't know how to multi-quote (can anyone tell me?)

Tick the wee box on the extreme right of the post(s) you want to reply to.

If it's the same post, then you'll have to break up with [/QUOTE].( Without the '/')


Then [/QUOTE] in the relevant places.

[tetsujin1979]

No. Does that jeopardise a Tetsujin theory?

nope, just we always seem to be short of left sided players!

[osarusan]

Anyway, I subjected my 5 year old to the English coaching system this morning. It was only his second ever coached football session, in our local park. He started by doing simple exercises but they finished with a "game", with the objective being to encourage passing rather than scoring. (you could only score after completing so many passes).

The kids were divided into 2 groups of 12, and a variation of a six-a-side game was played on 2 small pitches.


At the end, all 24 kids were called up under a tree.

The coach explained what the object of the exercise was, learning to pass to team mates. Then he said that there was one standout example of a guy looking to pass and find space (his words) and he called my little fella up and gave him a medal.

This very proud dad is feeling very positive about English coaching this evening!

You were the coach, weren't you.

[paul_oshea]

was just about to reply same my Japanese friend.

great posts lads. i think there is middle ground here

[Stuttgart88]

Look, Sexton is a hell of a player. But "practically reinventing the position"? Give me a break. That's the same guff I heard last winter when we were being told that Chris Ashton had reinvented the wing role.

Sean O'Brien and Heaslip are super players, but England has had fantastic back rows in the past, and they'll have them again.

The club v country issue is hampering English rugby. FT points out above that we don't have this problem, because we have centrally contracted players playing for "clubs" effectively sponsored by our national union.

[Stuttgart88]

Toashtie, while the club game has been adversely affected by rugby's professionalism, is it fair to say that the grass roots is in decline? I'd have thought otherwise.

If you look at these sports as pyramids, I'd say the bottom and the middle of the Irish football pyramid is probably in decent shape. The very top is in decent nick (the national team) and the LOI is having a great season in terms of the balance in the league and the competition at the top. The real problem is the disconnection between the middle and the top - the technical standard of the whole pyramid notwithstanding.

What condition is the rugby pyramid in? The top looks to be in great shape. The grassroots, I'd have thought is in good shape, but maybe the middle - the long established clubs - are finding it tough.

I also think it's funny how a win over England changes the mood re-rugby. We had a dreadful 6 Nations until thr last game. Poor performances against Italy, Wales and Scotland and an inability to put away a French team there for the beating preceded a very emphatic and gratifying win over England. Where did we come - third? How are we perceived? Virtually deified.

Would the football team be cut that much slack if we fail to qualify for the Euros?

Leinster were the best team in the H-Cup all season, granted.

[French Toasht]

Stutts, when I say grassroots, perhaps I'm looking at my own particular situation. If you didn't go to a fee paying school, I find it hard to see how any young lad can get involved in the game nowadays. I'm speaking on behalf of Leinster rugby here, when I say there is still an element of elitism that has trickled all the way down to the very junior ranks. Whilst schools rugby has been a real success story and has benefited the national team, if it is not open to a large percentage of the population then the game has failed in its objective to reach the grassroots.

I completely agree with you as regards how the victory against England appears to have changed perceptions. We had a shocking 6 Nations and the England result was merely papering over cracks.

[Stuttgart88]

I think the win over England showed our potential, but just underlined how poor our earlier performances were. I think it's fair to say we struggled with referees and the grey area betwen rucks and mauls, but we were still poor. What bugs me is that, bar a few discerning fans, everyone forgave & forgot the first 4 performances. It'd be nice if the football hury could be so tolerant.

[BonnieShels]

My take on what happened was that we realised the end product against England that we were trying to give a go at against the others and thats why the English result seemed to be blown out of proportion.
We were changing our game to suit the inevitable plethora of southern referees we'll get at the world cup.
Now I could be talking through my hat but that's what I got out of it. We shall see in the upcoming friendlies if that bears out.

[Charlie Darwin]

Stutts, when I say grassroots, perhaps I'm looking at my own particular situation. If you didn't go to a fee paying school, I find it hard to see how any young lad can get involved in the game nowadays. I'm speaking on behalf of Leinster rugby here, when I say there is still an element of elitism that has trickled all the way down to the very junior ranks. Whilst schools rugby has been a real success story and has benefited the national team, if it is not open to a large percentage of the population then the game has failed in its objective to reach the grassroots.

Join a club - there's loads of them around. The likes of O'Brien, Horgan, Jackman, O'Driscoll all started off at clubs. It's becoming more organised around schools now but the schools are scouting at clubs.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Don't forget also, a lot of this stuff is cyclical. It's farcical to expect small nations like Ireland to carry on producing a conveyor belt of international quality players, in any sports.

Not often we should have cause to thank the Brits in the sports world but the very fact some of their clubs do have top-class academies do mean very many Irish sportspeople, especially in a soccer context, have been able to benefit.