Magners League of Football?

**Adrock** · 01/11/2010, 2:22 PM

Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Clearly you have to learn how the rules of sport work also!

It's happened in many sports, as the world has got 'smaller' also with far more movement of peoples from their, er, ethnic homelands.
Cricket and both rugby codes have far more tenuous eligibility rules that make soccer/FIFA look paragons of virtue by comparison.

There are Irish Diaspora, as with many many other countries ( eg. Armenia, Brazil, China, India, Italy), spread all across the world. Many of them are not eligible as their heritage is too many generations back, but there are also millions who are.
They all have Irish blood:Get over it!

More contentiously, soccer is unlikely to ever have a great domestic presence, based partly on the proximity of the leagues in England & Scotland not to mention the saturation media coverage, but also due to the dominance of GAA to pervade many, if not all, aspects of Irish domestic culture!

The proximity of Germany does not seem to stop Switzerland having a decent national league and if Scotland can sustain 2 large clubs then we ought to be able to as well.
Cricket's rules are stricter in some senses, for instance Pietersen despite having English parentage still had to fulfil a four year residency requirement before being eligible for England - cant see Clark being too enthusiastic about that.
Its nothing to do with Irish blood anyway - we all bleed the same not green because we're irish - its the environment of your upbringing that determines what you become. If Clark had lived all his life in India do you think his Irish blood would have made him a top level footballer? If he'd grown up in Ireland he might have been anything - a GAA player, a drug addict, a priest? Who knows but its irrelevant anyway he grew up in England and became a footballer and an England captain at that and we cant take credit for it because of his blood, it just doesnt make sense. If you are one of these proud diaspora anyway youd presumably grow up knowing or feeling that you were Irish and you presumably wouldnt want to represent England. Any diasporites on this forum grow up wanting to play for England or wheerever they have diaspored to?

**boovidge** · 01/11/2010, 5:22 PM

Originally Posted by Adrock

The proximity of Germany does not seem to stop Switzerland having a decent national league and if Scotland can sustain 2 large clubs then we ought to be able to as well.
Cricket's rules are stricter in some senses, for instance Pietersen despite having English parentage still had to fulfil a four year residency requirement before being eligible for England - cant see Clark being too enthusiastic about that.
Its nothing to do with Irish blood anyway - we all bleed the same not green because we're irish - its the environment of your upbringing that determines what you become. If Clark had lived all his life in India do you think his Irish blood would have made him a top level footballer? If he'd grown up in Ireland he might have been anything - a GAA player, a drug addict, a priest? Who knows but its irrelevant anyway he grew up in England and became a footballer and an England captain at that and we cant take credit for it because of his blood, it just doesnt make sense. If you are one of these proud diaspora anyway youd presumably grow up knowing or feeling that you were Irish and you presumably wouldnt want to represent England. Any diasporites on this forum grow up wanting to play for England or wheerever they have diaspored to?

You're looking at it from the perspective that being Irish and being English are two mutually exclusive things. I don't think they are.

Other than that I've never spoken to Ciaran Clark personally so I don't think I'm in a position to judge how Irish he considers himself to be. I would find it strange, though if a highly rated 20 year old declared for Ireland and didn't consider himself Irish at all.

**gastric** · 01/11/2010, 9:06 PM

Adrock, even though I am beginning to believe you are a wind up merchant, the reason our own league is not strong is because of the number of football codes we support. Rugby Union and Gaelic are strong in support and participation and the near location of the UK means their leagues are and will continue to be stronger. Your comparison of Switzerland to Germany therefore is very different as outside of soccer and hiding money, there is not much more happening team wise in Switzerland.

**youngirish** · 01/11/2010, 11:57 PM

Originally Posted by gastric

Adrock, even though I am beginning to believe you are a wind up merchant, the reason our own league is not strong is because of the number of football codes we support. Rugby Union and Gaelic are strong in support and participation and the near location of the UK means their leagues are and will continue to be stronger. Your comparison of Switzerland to Germany therefore is very different as outside of soccer and hiding money, there is not much more happening team wise in Switzerland.

If anything football is even less popular in Switzerland than Ireland. The most popular sport in Switzerland is ice hockey. Skiing is also more popular than football though I realise it's not technically a team sport.

**tricky_colour** · 02/11/2010, 1:10 AM

Originally Posted by youngirish

If anything football is even less popular in Switzerland than Ireland. The most popular sport in Switzerland is ice hockey. Skiing is also more popular than football though I realise it's not technically a team sport.

Apart from the 4x10km relay and team sprint obviously

Is the Swizz league really that good? I doubt it.

**Charlie Darwin** · 02/11/2010, 1:15 AM

They usually have at least one team in the group stages of Europe. They had one in each competition last season and I believe two in the Europa this year. Technically, they're very good, although they are supplemented by foreign players more than our league.

**Adrock** · 02/11/2010, 1:16 PM

Originally Posted by tricky_colour

Apart from the 4x10km relay and team sprint obviously

Is the Swizz league really that good? I doubt it.

Fc Basel vs Bohemians? That would be a close one.............
There is plenty enough enthusiasm for following football on this island, regardeless of Rugby, Gaelic etc , it just happens to all be channelled in to watching the English Premiership and Celtic because there has never been a viable local alternative. There is no reason a city of Dublin's size couldnt accomodate a couple of top rate football clubs. You dont even have to create it completely from scratch. The Scottish Premier league is desperate for reform so it would make sense all round to create a wider celtic league - you could have 2 or 3 clubs from Dublin, one from Cork, Belfast, Derry and perhaps others. It just takes a bit of vision and actually wanting to change the status quo. We could even attract some players from abroad and if any stuck around a few years and qualified for us through residency I certainly wouldnt oppose a call-up to our national squad. At least they'd have lived here a while to actually know firsthand what being Irish really is.

**SwanVsDalton** · 02/11/2010, 1:39 PM

Originally Posted by Adrock

Fc Basel vs Bohemians? That would be a close one.............
There is plenty enough enthusiasm for following football on this island, regardeless of Rugby, Gaelic etc , it just happens to all be channelled in to watching the English Premiership and Celtic because there has never been a viable local alternative. There is no reason a city of Dublin's size couldnt accomodate a couple of top rate football clubs. You dont even have to create it completely from scratch. The Scottish Premier league is desperate for reform so it would make sense all round to create a wider celtic league - you could have 2 or 3 clubs from Dublin, one from Cork, Belfast, Derry and perhaps others. It just takes a bit of vision and actually wanting to change the status quo. We could even attract some players from abroad and if any stuck around a few years and qualified for us through residency I certainly wouldnt oppose a call-up to our national squad. At least they'd have lived here a while to actually know firsthand what being Irish really is.

Wait. You oppose calling up 2nd generation Irish players, but are in favour of demolishing our national league and having a few mercenaries in our national side if they hang around Temple Bar for a few years wearing leprechaun hats?

'No, dig up stupid!'

**Stuttgart88** · 02/11/2010, 2:04 PM

There's a contradiction there alright, but at no point did he mention "demolishing" anything.

I think there's an intelligent discussion to be had - from both sides, for and against - on restructuring or going cross-border, but such a discussion never gets off the ground here because of emotive language like the above.

**Adrock** · 02/11/2010, 2:21 PM

Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

Wait. You oppose calling up 2nd generation Irish players, but are in favour of demolishing our national league and having a few mercenaries in our national side if they hang around Temple Bar for a few years wearing leprechaun hats?

'No, dig up stupid!'

I'm not about destoying anything much (and sadly the LOI, bless it, is nothing much even though I do enjoy the occasional fixture) but creating and expanding - wouldnt you rather have a souped up Derry competing at a higher level of football on a weekly basis ?
As for the other point I am in no way contradicting any statement I have made on the eligibility issue . There is a world of difference between accepting people who have migrated in to the country and stayed several years as Irish as opposed to those whose ancestors had emigrated out from here at some point in history and have never been able to call Ireland home.

**SwanVsDalton** · 02/11/2010, 2:26 PM

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

There's a contradiction there alright, but at no point did he mention "demolishing" anything.

I think there's an intelligent discussion to be had - from both sides, for and against - on restructuring or going cross-border, but such a discussion never gets off the ground here because of emotive language like the above.

I actually think the intelligent discussion has been had on here quite a few times - regardless, it's hard to take seriously in the current instance since it's surrounded by comments which simultanously rubbish Ciaran Clark's commitment to Ireland while saying it's OK to throw out a couple of Carlo Cudicini-esque residency caps.

**Stuttgart88** · 02/11/2010, 2:27 PM

Fair point.

**SwanVsDalton** · 02/11/2010, 2:34 PM

Originally Posted by Adrock

I'm not about destoying anything much (and sadly the LOI, bless it, is nothing much even though I do enjoy the occasional fixture) but creating and expanding - wouldnt you rather have a souped up Derry competing at a higher level of football on a weekly basis ?

I'd love to see Derry competing at a higher level - I just happen to think it can be acheived domestically without resorting to convuluted 'souped up' Celtic franchises to do it. Investment, promotion, publicity, facilities and a sea change from those who think there's 'nothing much to it' would probably first on the list. After that maybe we can reach for the 'nuclear' button if needs be - if it came to that though, it'd be a real shame.

Originally Posted by Adrock

As for the other point I am in no way contradicting any statement I have made on the eligibility issue . There is a world of difference between accepting people who have migrated in to the country and stayed several years as Irish as opposed to those whose ancestors had emigrated out from here at some point in history and have never been able to call Ireland home.

Your adverse reaction to Ciaran Clark, as throughly documented in this thread, is completely contradictory to the idea of capping foreign born nationals who have come to Ireland to play football in any league (LOI or Celtic franchise as you suggest). You seem to think living in the country for a few years is worth more than genuine Irish lineage. I think that's just baffling.

**Adrock** · 02/11/2010, 6:37 PM

Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

I'd love to see Derry competing at a higher level - I just happen to think it can be acheived domestically without resorting to convuluted 'souped up' Celtic franchises to do it. Investment, promotion, publicity, facilities and a sea change from those who think there's 'nothing much to it' would probably first on the list. After that maybe we can reach for the 'nuclear' button if needs be - if it came to that though, it'd be a real shame.

Your adverse reaction to Ciaran Clark, as throughly documented in this thread, is completely contradictory to the idea of capping foreign born nationals who have come to Ireland to play football in any league (LOI or Celtic franchise as you suggest). You seem to think living in the country for a few years is worth more than genuine Irish lineage. I think that's just baffling.

Its going to take a drastic relaunch to get the LOI up to a serious standard not any piecemail minor attempts at change. The most feasible practical way to do this at the current time is for a few Irish teams to become involved in the Scottish Premier league given they are crying out for change at the moment. These can even be newly created teams if necessary and the LOI can continue its mediocre existence as it is with no loss of standard much as the Irish national championships continue in rugby and the League of Wales continues without the clubs who have any degree of ambition having an interst in membership. Scottish clubs I'm sure couldnt care less as some would be happier playing in England anyway.
On the other point I am baffled how you think someone who has spent several years living in Irish society should be less Irish than someone who for instance happens to have a single Irish grandparent - maybe I'm missing something in this diaspora issue but how does the birthplace of one of your gran's have any relevance to your life? Or seeing as this is the Ciaran Clark thread having grown knowing you could play for Ireland but having pursued a career with the country you were actually born and lived all your life as part of until they'd stopped picking you and you had given up hope of getting any further with them.
I'm not saying foreign born nationals who had come to pursue a career here make ideal Irish internationals but they are more ideal than foreign born nationals who havent ever come to live here at all but still comprise half our squad. There for a failure of understanding.........

**Charlie Darwin** · 02/11/2010, 7:07 PM

Why would the Scottish clubs vote to let a load of tin-pot Irish sides into their league? They have enough problems of their own without adding further travel costs to sides with even smaller gates than theirs.

**Greenbod** · 02/11/2010, 7:24 PM

Originally Posted by Adrock

maybe I'm missing something in this diaspora issue .....

Yes you are missing something.

**third policeman** · 02/11/2010, 9:00 PM

Because of the potentially huge (circa 100%) increase in TV revenue from doubling the size of their prospective audience. Not to mention a better and more competitive league with more meaningful fixtures and bigger attendances etc etc. I dont think anyone who advocates this model envisages the simple addition of a few LOI / IL teams to the SPL. It would need to be a radical rethink, but it could create the basis for decent domestic soccer and more of our players staying in Ireland.

**Charlie Darwin** · 02/11/2010, 9:03 PM

Yep, the last time they got increased TV revenue from Ireland it worked out really well.

As far as I know, you're the only one who advocates the model, and it would require such a total restructure that you can safely rule out it every happening. You're talking about basically creating 3/4 Sporting Fingals. 1 is bad enough.

**Adrock** · 02/11/2010, 9:37 PM

Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Why would the Scottish clubs vote to let a load of tin-pot Irish sides into their league? They have enough problems of their own without adding further travel costs to sides with even smaller gates than theirs.

I've spoken to a supporters of a lot of SPL clubs and they liked the sound of a relaunched Celtic league (from Edinburgh as well as Glasgow), you cant underestimate their dissaffection witht the current situation over there. Obviously just having the present LOI squads in the scottish structure isnt a lot of use to anyone. To work it would need a serious overhaul and relaunch on a kind of Superleague basis, like Super14 rugby or Magners or Major league in the U.S you could create new sides or revamp old ones, it would need a lot of investment and commercial commitment but it could work and would certainly be an improvement on the current state of affairs which encourage only apathy. Anyway its about time something was tried at least, there's enough people with a passion for football in Dublin for instance to sustain somewhat more illustrious clubs than the like of Bohemians and Shamrock Rovers are at present. History has dictated that we dont have a respectable national league but we dont have to slaves to history forever and adding the scottish element to merely restricting ourselves to clubs in Ireland would create a wider range of club sides so it needn't be as topheavy as the SPL presently is. It would take time and commitment though and nobody's going to bother as its accepted that all Irish players with any real potential should go and play in Britain and any Irish fans wanting to to watch quality football should go there to watch it, and so we're left with a standard of football roughly equivalent to that of the Maltese league and so it shall ever be apparently.