Democracy - LOL

[Angus]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...261524896.html

Surprised at the very low key reaction to this. This is facism with a smile and comforting handshake in an expensive suit.

I share Brutons thouhgts on individuals behaviour but his suggestion that the solution is to end the nation state model - that means the end of democracy, by the way, such as it is - as we know it today.

He literally lonks the failures of copenhagen and stunningly war crimes to the failure of the nation state model. Nothing, of course, to do with the staggeringly inept and corrupt professional coterie of politicans and diplomats playing on the world stage.

Guys - this is what Lisbon is about - this is facism.

[jebus]

First off I'll take it you've never read what it was like to live in a fascist state to make such a ridiculous remark as that

Second this is correct

If people did not buy bigger cars, bigger houses further from town, and buy more and more food that goes to waste, there would be less climate change.

If people did not borrow so much, banks would not lend so much, and taxpayers would not have to bail them out.

If people did not buy narcotics, there would be no international drugs trade, no drug lords, and no Taliban either.

Third he is right that we cannot cling to old models that no longer serve the world best. Look at the way America is still a slave to John Locke's philosophy on land ownership(no not the Lost character, the British philosopher) when even Locke himself said the established systems and governments need to be fully dismantled and rebuilt every few decades to cope with changing times. It's quite clear that when it comes to something like climate change, which is a world problem, that systems based on nations being isolated won't ever work, Copenhagen does indeed show that in it's fullest light.

I personally think the article is fantastic

[John83]

That's a fairly hysterical reaction to an article that really just boils down to the staggering insight that getting unanimous agreement between 200 countries, some of them fairly contrary, is a bit of a bother.

[Angus]

John 83, I know personally as a thoughtful intelligent man. Jebus, don't know you personally but have the same view from your posts here - so with all respect guys I totally disagree. I accept that the word fascism, while arguably technically correct, evokes genocidal tendencies and should be kept out of this.

Yes, the analysis of the individuals behaviour is accurate and the failures of pols to get action (not consensus) on key issues is very concerning, but to blame the nation state model is very suspect

Not only does he blame the nation state but, as a renowned EU federalist, presumably that is where he is going with this.

This is about the professional political class not being subject to popular vote, and therefore getting kicked out every so often

Now, by and large electorates are not very sophisticated and will frequesntly vote for the soundbite or the shiny piece of tinsel but that is a small price to pay for sovereignty.

For example, if the US and the G7, genuinely wanted a climate change package they would announce it themselves and everyone would follow.

The problems of climate change and war crimes and landmines and Rwanda etc etc is about a lack of leadership and is not about the nation state structure.

[peadar1987]

On Jebus' point about America, it's amazing how many Americans think that the founding fathers and the things they wrote were completely infallible, and will quote them as they would the bible.

[NeilMcD]

On Jebus' point about America, it's amazing how many Americans think that the founding fathers and the things they wrote were completely infallible, and will quote them as they would the bible.

They have more truth than the bible though.

[dahamsta]

Little Miss Muffet has more truth than the bible, it's hardly an example either of ye should be using.

[peadar1987]

They have more truth than the bible though.

Of course they do, but when people are trying to apply the morality and reasoning laid down by people whose primary concerns were total war with the British Empire, and not being eaten by wolves to an information age society, it's almost as ridiculous as basing your entire existence on the semi-crazed ramblings of the religious leaders of a genocidal nomadic middle-eastern tribe.

[John83]

Of course they do, but when people are trying to apply the morality and reasoning laid down by people whose primary concerns were total war with the British Empire, and not being eaten by wolves to an information age society, it's almost as ridiculous as basing your entire existence on the semi-crazed ramblings of the religious leaders of a genocidal nomadic middle-eastern tribe.

I don't know. A lot of what I've read Americans quote of them has been about the balancing act of government power versus personal liberty, which is pretty universal. If you're going to invest your trust somewhere, they're not a bad start.

Of course, there are problems. I mean, the right to bear arms means a hell of a lot less than it did when the pinnacle of military engineering was a bloody big cannon.

[Rasputin]

Surprised at the very low key reaction to this. This is facism with a smile and comforting handshake in an expensive suit.

No its not.
One of the core tenents of Facism is Ultra-Nationalism and Bruton is calling for the disolution of the Nation state.
Anyway the whole article is very misguided litered with Liberal rehtorric.
He is blaming the lack of cohesion among Nations as the reason for failing to come to an agreement but in reality this totally neglects the economic system which drives forward the consumerism he mentions here.....

If people did not buy bigger cars, bigger houses further from town, and buy more and more food that goes to waste, there would be less climate change.

And the consumerism mentioned again....

If people did not borrow so much, banks would not lend so much, and taxpayers would not have to bail them out.

Or the whole raft of social reasons for drug taking.
His whole arguement is based around the sanctity of the individual and how individual choice is what drives forward consumerism and drug taking etc while neglecting the economic forces which shape the society we live in.
This is not Facism its just Neo-Liberalism without the Nationalistic sentimentality.