The Derry City thread - Derry sign first four players

[passerrby]

what do you see as the most likely outcome for derry kev

[John83]

What are the chances of Derry getting a licence for next season?

Very had to tell, but with Cork in seemingly worse trouble, my guess is Derry will fold before they get refused a licence.

Have they broke any of the rules yet?

Breach of contract with their players means everyone can leave on a free. No league rules though.

I take it not paying players does break the rules?

To get a licence, they need to have either (a) paid the players or (b) come to an agreement with them. This will come to a head in January or so.

Will they have broken the 65% rule as well?

Only someone with access to their accounts could say for sure, but it has to be close if they can't afford wages at the moment.

[micls]

To get a licence, they need to have either (a) paid the players or (b) come to an agreement with them. This will come to a head in January or so.
.

This must be done by November 30th

[MariborKev]

what do you see as the most likely outcome for derry kev

That is a difficult one passerby as no one seems to know the level of debt we are talking about.

I have heard wildy varying figures of us to several hundred thousand pounds sterling, but until the board released figures then we are all basing it on our own rough and ready predictions.

[dortie]

Exactly.

As a mutual acquaintance of ours emailed me yesterday

"A bucket collection is a stupid idea to be honest. No-one even knows how much in debt we are and even if we did, it's going to be so big that a bucket collection could never cover it. Can you imagine walking up to a front door with a bucket: "Derry City are broke, can you give me some money?" "Naw, I work in Stream and am being made redundant in December. My wife worked in Seagate Limavady and was made redundant last year. And you want me to give you money to pay people for playing football? Off ye go."

Ive done it before, and swore i wouldnt do it again. Its obvious the more everyone does the merrier however we really need to address how we cut current monthy outgoings asap. Otherwise a collection will be required every week until January. Dont like to knock an idea, it has to be admired but in reality will a collection pay one player one weeks wages ?

[John83]

This must be done by November 30th

Is there not a second deadline? Or is that just for audited accounts or something?

[EalingGreen]

Derry league move 'not on agenda'


http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...sh/8331030.stm

On the face of it, that Statement seems clear enough, but am I the only one who wonders about some of the language McDaid is using?

McDaid has made clear he is not in favour of a return to the Irish League.
"We don't feel there is a great wave of opinion in favour of returning to the Irish League," McDaid told the BBC.
Given a free choice, that much is undoubtedly true, However, the prospect of DCFC returning to the IL is only being speculated on because they may not be free to choose i.e. if they have broken certain key LOI Rules, they might not receive a Licence, or might even fold before then, in which case they might have to consider the IL?


"We're a member of the League of Ireland and a very proud member at that."
Understandably so, but that hardly adds to the debate.


"An awful lot of the discussion and debate is centred around our current financial difficulties as opposed to any great genuine desire to return to the Irish League"
It's nothing to do with "desire", rather it's whether those "financial difficulties" might force a return to the IL.


"As a chairman and at a board level...it's certainly not something that is on our agenda at this point in time."
Why add "at this point in time"? Had he stopped at "agenda", that would have drawn a line under it. Perhaps he's leaving himself "wriggle room"?


McDaid added that club officials are continuing to make strenuous efforts to alleviate the financial difficulties which have led to players not receiving some of their wages in recent months.
"At this point in time, we're working on the basis that we can resolve our difficulties.
The main reason we are in the difficulties that we are in at the moment isn't because of bus journeys to Dublin or Cork
"We're very much aiming to be in the Premier Division of the League of Ireland next season and we're still holding out hopes of qualifying for Europe."
McDaid also hinted that the club would be keen to show loyalty to a League which welcomed them with "open arms" back in 1985.
"That was a real lifeline and a real saviour to get the club moving again back in 1985"
"While we are facing traumatic difficulties at the moment and we are certainly facing a huge uphill struggle to pull through, it doesn't mean that you have to review the very existence of how the club operates."
McDaid added that travel costs was not the main contributory factor to Derry's current problems.
"The main reason we are in the difficulties that we are in at the moment isn't because of bus journeys to Dublin or Cork. It goes a lot deeper than that."
All very true, no doubt, except that if the "uphill struggle" becomes too great to overcome, they might be forced to "review... ...how the club operates" etc.
At no point does McDaid simply state that it will not come to that.
(Plus he slips in another "at this point in time")


McDaid believes that Derry are likely to be facing Irish League teams in an All-Ireland League within the next decade.
"It won't happen next year or maybe four or five years but I think it (All-Ireland League) is inevitable if we are going to have a proper, successful and ultimately full-time league."
OK, I'm very possibly straying into "Outer Limits" territory here, but might McDaid be softening the blow for DCFC fans, just in case the club has to revert to the IL sometime sooner?
After all, with the Platinum fiasco, doubts over the Setanta Cup's future and the present economic crisis mitigating against full-time football in Ireland (however organised), surely an All-Ireland League is further away than seemed possible even a year or two ago, not closer?
Certainly DCFC's hopes of being a f-t time member of any such League have receded quite some way since then.

[micls]

Is there not a second deadline? Or is that just for audited accounts or something?

Second deadline is for audited accounts, 31st January

[MariborKev]

We still have not managed to file accounts for Y.E Nov 08 with Companies House yet......

[John83]

We still have not managed to file accounts for Y.E Nov 08 with Companies House yet......

That must be racking up penalties at this stage?

[passerrby]

This must be done by November 30th

technacally your right but if you can get an agreement 20 mins before the licence committe meets you ll be fine, its the FAI way

[dcfcsteve]

On the face of it, that Statement seems clear enough, but am I the only one who wonders about some of the language McDaid is using?

McDaid has made clear he is not in favour of a return to the Irish League.
"We don't feel there is a great wave of opinion in favour of returning to the Irish League," McDaid told the BBC.
Given a free choice, that much is undoubtedly true, However, the prospect of DCFC returning to the IL is only being speculated on because they may not be free to choose i.e. if they have broken certain key LOI Rules, they might not receive a Licence, or might even fold before then, in which case they might have to consider the IL?


"We're a member of the League of Ireland and a very proud member at that."
Understandably so, but that hardly adds to the debate.


"An awful lot of the discussion and debate is centred around our current financial difficulties as opposed to any great genuine desire to return to the Irish League"
It's nothing to do with "desire", rather it's whether those "financial difficulties" might force a return to the IL.


"As a chairman and at a board level...it's certainly not something that is on our agenda at this point in time."
Why add "at this point in time"? Had he stopped at "agenda", that would have drawn a line under it. Perhaps he's leaving himself "wriggle room"?


McDaid added that club officials are continuing to make strenuous efforts to alleviate the financial difficulties which have led to players not receiving some of their wages in recent months.
"At this point in time, we're working on the basis that we can resolve our difficulties.
The main reason we are in the difficulties that we are in at the moment isn't because of bus journeys to Dublin or Cork
"We're very much aiming to be in the Premier Division of the League of Ireland next season and we're still holding out hopes of qualifying for Europe."
McDaid also hinted that the club would be keen to show loyalty to a League which welcomed them with "open arms" back in 1985.
"That was a real lifeline and a real saviour to get the club moving again back in 1985"
"While we are facing traumatic difficulties at the moment and we are certainly facing a huge uphill struggle to pull through, it doesn't mean that you have to review the very existence of how the club operates."
McDaid added that travel costs was not the main contributory factor to Derry's current problems.
"The main reason we are in the difficulties that we are in at the moment isn't because of bus journeys to Dublin or Cork. It goes a lot deeper than that."
All very true, no doubt, except that if the "uphill struggle" becomes too great to overcome, they might be forced to "review... ...how the club operates" etc.
At no point does McDaid simply state that it will not come to that.
(Plus he slips in another "at this point in time")


McDaid believes that Derry are likely to be facing Irish League teams in an All-Ireland League within the next decade.
"It won't happen next year or maybe four or five years but I think it (All-Ireland League) is inevitable if we are going to have a proper, successful and ultimately full-time league."
OK, I'm very possibly straying into "Outer Limits" territory here, but might McDaid be softening the blow for DCFC fans, just in case the club has to revert to the IL sometime sooner?
After all, with the Platinum fiasco, doubts over the Setanta Cup's future and the present economic crisis mitigating against full-time football in Ireland (however organised), surely an All-Ireland League is further away than seemed possible even a year or two ago, not closer?
Certainly DCFC's hopes of being a f-t time member of any such League have receded quite some way since then.

EG - what is it with the ongoing assumption that we might be forced to join the IL ?

It's a more likely scenario that, if the current club wasn't given a license for the LOI, that it would go 'bang' and a new one would form and be given an LOI license.

It wouldn't be the first time it's happened in the league, and the fact that we're based in the north is frankly irrelevant so long as the other clubs want us in the LOI - which they do.

The only real speculation I've ever heard on DCFC returning the the IL is from non-DCFC people. That's not speculation - it's wishful thinking.

[dcfcsteve]

Am I right in saying that Derry City have special dispensation form UEFA to play in the LOI?

So if the returned in another guise like Cork have done over the years they would not be allowed to play in the LOI?

You would be right to say we HAD special dispensation.

Since 1992 European law has changed to mean that we no longer need such dispensation to be based in one EU jurisdiction and ply our trade in another.

[EalingGreen]

EG - what is it with the ongoing assumption that we might be forced to join the IL ?

I'm not assuming anything, merely speculating whether it might somehow come to that.

And as I noted earlier, to put an end to such speculation, all McDaid had to do was simply state:
"We do not want to go back, we do not intend to go back, nor do we need to go back. And neither will that situation change" (or somesuch).

It's a more likely scenario that, if the current club wasn't given a license for the LOI, that it would go 'bang' and a new one would form and be given an LOI license.

Which is what I'm unsure about. If a club in one incarnation is ineligible for an LOI Licence, can they simply walk away from their debts and obligations etc, then turn up the next day under another name and blithely receive a new Licence?
I think I'm correct in saying that the loophole whereby Coleraine did just that in the IL was promptly closed, to prevent its re-occurrence.
Anyhow, what on earth is the point of Licensing, if clubs can make a mockery of it in such a fashion?

the fact that we're based in the north is frankly irrelevant so long as the other clubs want us in the LOI - which they do.

The relevance of your being an NI club is that if for some reason you could not compete in the LOI, you might still be eligible to apply to (re)join the IL - unlike all the other LOI clubs. That's all.

The only real speculation I've ever heard on DCFC returning the the IL is from non-DCFC people. That's not speculation - it's wishful thinking.

Would Liam Coyle be a "non-DCFC person"?
Anyhow, speaking solely for myself, I strongly suspect that the FAI will fudge it if need be, in order to keep DCFC in the LOI.

But if they cannot/will not, then I don't mind owning up to wishing that DCFC were back in the IL, just as I wish they had never felt compelled to withdraw from it in the first place.

After all, welcoming someone back is hardly insulting or abusing them...

[Schumi]

Which is what I'm unsure about. If a club in one incarnation is ineligible for an LOI Licence, can they simply walk away from their debts and obligations etc, then turn up the next day under another name and blithely receive a new Licence?

A new 'Derry City' could apply for entry into the A Championship (the third tier), and would have to pass the licence conditions for that level, like any club outside the league can. I'm pretty sure that there was a rule change recently that clubs who reform without paying their debts can't keep their place in the league.

[micls]

A new 'Derry City' could apply for entry into the A Championship (the third tier), and would have to pass the licence conditions for that level, like any club outside the league can. I'm pretty sure that there was a rule change recently that clubs who reform without paying their debts can't keep their place in the league.

Yep, after us doing it in 1995.

If the company goes, the license goes and its back to A championship

[OneRedArmy]

I'm not assuming anything, merely speculating whether it might somehow come to that.

And as I noted earlier, to put an end to such speculation, all McDaid had to do was simply state:
"We do not want to go back, we do not intend to go back, nor do we need to go back. And neither will that situation change" (or somesuch).


Which is what I'm unsure about. If a club in one incarnation is ineligible for an LOI Licence, can they simply walk away from their debts and obligations etc, then turn up the next day under another name and blithely receive a new Licence?
I think I'm correct in saying that the loophole whereby Coleraine did just that in the IL was promptly closed, to prevent its re-occurrence.
Anyhow, what on earth is the point of Licensing, if clubs can make a mockery of it in such a fashion?


The relevance of your being an NI club is that if for some reason you could not compete in the LOI, you might still be eligible to apply to (re)join the IL - unlike all the other LOI clubs. That's all.


Would Liam Coyle be a "non-DCFC person"?
Anyhow, speaking solely for myself, I strongly suspect that the FAI will fudge it if need be, in order to keep DCFC in the LOI.

But if they cannot/will not, then I don't mind owning up to wishing that DCFC were back in the IL, just as I wish they had never felt compelled to withdraw from it in the first place.

After all, welcoming someone back is hardly insulting or abusing them...

Our problem is spending money we don't have.

I can't see how re-joining the IL is a solution to that.

The whole IL thing is either an unhelpful smokescreen (my view) or a naive panacea (a kinder persons view) to what we desperately need to find out asap, which is how deep the hole we've dug ourselves is.

As Kev said above, even our shareholders are left clasping to anecdotal stories and back of fag packet calculations to try to compute a survival percentage.

I'm a pessimistic crank at the best of times and I've been accused of crying wolf for long enough on dcchat to stop posting on there for over a season (until this week) so maybe I'm creating a storm in a teacup by myself, but my best guess is that we're as screwed as Cork, with a few additional twists.

1) HRMC don't do ****pot settlements (Rovers take note). Never have, not going to start with an organisation that has gone to the wall twice in less than two decades before this latest "situation".

2) Almost every wealthy businessman in Derry who has a passing interest in football has been burnt to a major degree by "investing" in DCFC since we came back into football. Literally millions have been invested with not only no return on capital, but no return on principal either. The well is dry, unless sentiment overcomes one of the poor buggers who has been tapped before, and more the fools them.

The bottom line is that Derry and Cork have had the biggest attendences over the past 5 years and should've automatically been in a position to be the best run clubs in the League by dint of the revenue that produced. Instead they just got dragged into some kind of mutually assured destruction pact with the other usual suspects.

When a horse falls in a race a vet needs to make a quick decision whether it can go back to racing or whether it would be inhumane to keep it alive as a shadow or its former self and you put a bullet in it (a bolt?) and start with a new horse.

I'd say we're right there and it would be nice if our Board actually gave us, the shareholders and the fans, the information to inform this decision.

[SMorgan]

According to this

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sp...-14544944.html

Derry City are looking for advanced payment of their prize money for coming 3rd or 4th.

The FAI can't do this as the club maybe deducted points or even relegated if it did not comply with the 65% cap. It this were the case (and how could it not be?) then Derry City won't be entitled to the prize money that they are looking for an advance payment on.

[dcfcsteve]

Our problem is spending money we don't have.

I can't see how re-joining the IL is a solution to that.

The whole IL thing is either an unhelpful smokescreen (my view) or a naive panacea (a kinder persons view) to what we desperately need to find out asap, which is how deep the hole we've dug ourselves is.

As Kev said above, even our shareholders are left clasping to anecdotal stories and back of fag packet calculations to try to compute a survival percentage.

I'm a pessimistic crank at the best of times and I've been accused of crying wolf for long enough on dcchat to stop posting on there for over a season (until this week) so maybe I'm creating a storm in a teacup by myself, but my best guess is that we're as screwed as Cork, with a few additional twists.

1) HRMC don't do ****pot settlements (Rovers take note). Never have, not going to start with an organisation that has gone to the wall twice in less than two decades before this latest "situation".

2) Almost every wealthy businessman in Derry who has a passing interest in football has been burnt to a major degree by "investing" in DCFC since we came back into football. Literally millions have been invested with not only no return on capital, but no return on principal either. The well is dry, unless sentiment overcomes one of the poor buggers who has been tapped before, and more the fools them.

The bottom line is that Derry and Cork have had the biggest attendences over the past 5 years and should've automatically been in a position to be the best run clubs in the League by dint of the revenue that produced. Instead they just got dragged into some kind of mutually assured destruction pact with the other usual suspects.

When a horse falls in a race a vet needs to make a quick decision whether it can go back to racing or whether it would be inhumane to keep it alive as a shadow or its former self and you put a bullet in it (a bolt?) and start with a new horse.

I'd say we're right there and it would be nice if our Board actually gave us, the shareholders and the fans, the information to inform this decision.

ORA - Has there been any talk of shareholders calling an EGM to ask the Board what the situation is ? Do you know how many/what percentage is required to do this ?

With season's end upon us, perhaps forcing the Board's hand to reveal the situation is worth considering.

[osarusan]

Our problem is spending money we don't have.

I can't see how re-joining the IL is a solution to that.

Would the argument in favour of joining the IL be that, both in terms of travel costs and costs needed to be a competitive team in the league, you'd be spending less money that you don't have?
Still, I can't see it happening. The LOI wants you, and you want the LOI.