Communism @ Croke Park

[Leeside Swagger]

Any mention of no banners allowed on the t+c's on the back of the ticket?

[SuperDave]

Any mention of no banners allowed on the t+c's on the back of the ticket?

That would be where the allowance of removing it comes from.

If someone came to your house for dinner then after eating revealed a t-shirt saying 'your cooking sucks' you'd be none too happy. It's pretty much the same situation. It's not really a free speech issue as much as a breach of contract / private property / trespass issue. I don't really have a problem with it. However, it is pretty obvious that it does the FAI more harm than good censoring like this so you do have to question the effectiveness of it.

[Leeside Swagger]

That would be where the allowance of removing it comes from.

So its in the terms and conditions so? If all banners are being removed then i dont see the problem, thems the rules. Otherwise you would have to make a judgement call on every banner to see if it was offensive etc.

[eamo1]

Was anyone else here in or near the singing section of the Davin Stand last Saturday night?Some fools let off a few stink bombs and the stewards in the area just walked away.To be fair unless they seen someone lighting one then there's not much they could have done.Approx sections 320 and 321.

[SuperDave]

So its in the terms and conditions so? If all banners are being removed then i dont see the problem, thems the rules. Otherwise you would have to make a judgement call on every banner to see if it was offensive etc.

i don't know what the t+cs are... but i'd imagine that's where they get the power from. I don't know if it is only offensive banners or what it is but i'm only guessing.

[OneRedArmy]

That would be where the allowance of removing it comes from.

If someone came to your house for dinner then after eating revealed a t-shirt saying 'your cooking sucks' you'd be none too happy. It's pretty much the same situation. It's not really a free speech issue as much as a breach of contract / private property / trespass issue. I don't really have a problem with it. However, it is pretty obvious that it does the FAI more harm than good censoring like this so you do have to question the effectiveness of it.

Its only the same if the guards came round to help you take the t-shirt off them.

Its not trespass if you have paid for a ticket.

Gardai have no remit in a breach of contract.

[SuperDave]

Its only the same if the guards came round to help you take the t-shirt off them.

Its not trespass if you have paid for a ticket.

Gardai have no remit in a breach of contract.

well, it's trespass if you are in breach of your contract

and if it's trespass then the gardai have remit to remove you

so no problem.

[John83]

Its only the same if the guards came round to help you take the t-shirt off them.

Its not trespass if you have paid for a ticket.

Gardai have no remit in a breach of contract.

Oh, enough of the barber-shop legal advise. It is trespass if you are asked to leave for a valid reason and don't, and we don't know the specifics.

[OneRedArmy]

Oh, enough of the barber-shop legal advise. It is trespass if you are asked to leave for a valid reason and don't, and we don't know the specifics.

1) Its advice.
2) Nothing barber-shop about it. Have been in this very situation before.
Process goes as follows.
i) Steward asks you to take down banner. They are entitled to ask you to do this.

ii) If you refuse, they are required to call gardai to remove banner and/or remove you from the ground if you won't co-operate.

iii) The gardai are then required to take their own view on the issue. They should not act in a Pinkerton Guard-type manner. They are not a private police force. Unfortunately they tend to blindly follow the requests of the stewards in my experience.

[SuperDave]

From the back of your ticket (selected parts only, obviously):

The instructions of the stewards and the Gardai must be obeyed at all times.

All persons entering the ground agree to be searched by a member of the Gardai Siochana.

The following are not permitted:

- Bringing into the ground fireworks, smoke canisters, bottles, glasses, cans, flags, banners, poles, distress signals, laser pointers and other similar articles or containers, including anything which could or might be ised as a weapon.

If a person commits a trespass, reasonable force may be used to prevent, restrain or terminate any trespass.

Where a person is in breach of any of these rules, or where the management believes that a person constitutes a source of danger to others, or to the ground, such person may be refused entry to or ejected from the ground, and reasonable force may be used for that purpose.

I think that covers it quite well...

[OneRedArmy]

From the back of your ticket (selected parts only, obviously):



I think that covers it quite well...

The gardai are required to enforce the law. They are not specifically required to enforce the terms and conditions on the back of a ticket. They are not a private police force.

[Scram]

Remember the "Delaney Out" tshirt protest?

Similarly dealt with.

Whatever about the stewards, the Gardai shouldn't have gotten involved. Hard to argue that such a banner was inciting anything or breaching the peace.

P.S. Closer to facism than communism IMO...

Both incidents are PROPOSTEROUS. The Gardai in this case have absolutely no leagal authority to confiscate any banner. Anyone say otherwise? Is there some small print on the back of tickets?

[edit: just saw above, but the enforcement was because of the content of the banner, not just because it was a banner]

ps. a bit unfair to say "at Croke Park"...it is unlikely that GAA are making these calls.

It's just bullying, but that's how this country is! The Gardai are a force for use by the elite as they wish, protestors are videotaped, beaten, chastised and villified. That is why nobody spoke about many injustices for may years, as we all know.

I was going to making an extreme comment with regards to recently revelaed incidents which show how the state and it's puppets can get away with dreadful actions while the ordianry punter is bullied but this would probaly be an over-reaction.

This is a misuse of power over a petty incident while criminals go about their business with impunity.

A case should be taken for the return of the stolen items.

Boycott the play-offs :-)

[SuperDave]

The gardai are required to enforce the law. They are not specifically required to enforce the terms and conditions on the back of a ticket. They are not a private police force.

Okay, let me spell this out

Breach of the terms of that contract is a trespass

trespass is a crime

the gardai can take steps to stop crimes

and thus can stop you committing a trespass

really? got it now?

[Scram]

The enforcement is being done based on THE CONTENT of banners/flags. That is the problem.

[SuperDave]

The enforcement is being done based on THE CONTENT of banners/flags. That is the problem.

Yeah that's definitely true.... if they wanted to they could get rid of all flags and banners but instead they do so selectively. It is a political choice, but who is making the choice? Is it individual little Hitlers or is it from above?

[Scram]

Yeah that's definitely true.... if they wanted to they could get rid of all flags and banners but instead they do so selectively. It is a political choice, but who is making the choice? Is it individual little Hitlers or is it from above?

Probably a mixture IMO.

[geysir]

It would be no small coincidence that the banner was caught by the tv cameras
and shortly after that, the stewards intervened.
One can assume within rational level of certainty that the direction to intervene came from a higher authority.

Under normal circumstances, you would hardly need a riot squad to ask a harmless looking punter to move on home.

[geysir]

Okay, let me spell this out

Breach of the terms of that contract is a trespass

trespass is a crime

the gardai can take steps to stop crimes

and thus can stop you committing a trespass

really? got it now?

The anecdotal evidence offered is
"senior" gardai came over to question what was going on he realised that the boys had done nothing and told them to go on ahead. common sense really.

If that is a fair account, then regardless of the technical side of the trespass argument, the interpretation of the incident by the Gardai themselves, supports the idea that the issue was a big nothing for them to get involved in.

[twoenz]

Did the steward then proceed to take over the factories in the name of the state, outlaw private ownership of land or industry, and invest heavily in equal public services for all?

Nah, if that was the case they'd be looking to build massive public white elephants in all the major towns in the land which they'd claim would be for the good of the people.


Oh, hang on...

[twoenz]

The gardai are required to enforce the law. They are not specifically required to enforce the terms and conditions on the back of a ticket. They are not a private police force.

It's obviously a quiet evenings work for them, and people aren't going to turn round and tell them to f**k off, which they probably would to a steward.