Lisbon Treaty

[kingdom hoop]

The falsity of the myth that we were doomed without this treaty will be revealed to all sooner or later

I think the veracity of the myth is that we're some strain of doomed regardless, just probably less doomed with it. Anyway, I wouldn't be expecting too many revelations, or if there are it'll be later rather than sooner - by which stage the intermingling of factors will greatly complicate any investigations into "the effects of Lisbon."

It was always going to be difficult to construct concrete and immediately applicable arguments on the largely abstract base of a Treaty. The practical ramifications can only emerge slowly. So it is just as silly to expect jobs on Monday, as it would be to expect, say, tangible evidence of a lowering in workers' rights had there been a No vote.

Although, on a second's thought, maybe there will be a job or two if the Lisbon Tourist Board cash-in on all the goodwill, ramp up an oul advertising campaign. "Find out what Lisbon's really like!"

[Poor Student]

While the No side focused on the minor reduction of our already miniscule voting weights it took attention away from the fact that Ireland exerts its influence in Europe more through deals and coalitions rather than exerting its voting weight alone. Our continued abaility to pursue and defend our interests relies on the goodwill and sentiment of our partners in Europe. That is not scaremongering, that is reality. It is the same in any boardroom or any committe at any level, you will get more done if you get on well with your fellow members. By rejecting a benign treaty like this we risked pushing ourselves to the periphery at a time when we can afford it least. The No campaign, esentially a bizarre coalition of far left and right wing interests, contorted this treaty and sunk the debate to a low level that required the Yes side to match their appeal to baser instincts and insecurity.

[mypost]

While the No side focused on the minor reduction of our already miniscule voting weights it took attention away from the fact that Ireland exerts its influence in Europe more through deals and coalitions rather than exerting its voting weight alone. Our continued abaility to pursue and defend our interests relies on the goodwill and sentiment of our partners in Europe.

We are 0.8% of Europe. Not even a measly 1%. We have neither power nor influence in the EU now.

It is the same in any boardroom or any committe at any level, you will get more done if you get on well with your fellow members. By rejecting a benign treaty like this we risked pushing ourselves to the periphery at a time when we can afford it least.

There is no "Core", and no "periphery" of the EU. It's a political term with no resonance anywhere beyond Brussels.

The Lisbon Treaty is not about what we can afford now, it's about Ireland's standing in the EU 5, 10, 15, 20, 50 years and furthur down the line, and how EU decisions affect us then. It's impossible to have any meaningful influence in something when you're 0.8% of it, and less as new countries are admitted.

It is not a benign treaty, it is the EU rulebook for the rest of our life. What they get done by "getting on well" with other members is of no consequence to Mr and Mrs Average. What is, is the lack of sovereignty and respect for popular democracy, and that is why the implications of this treaty differ from all the rest.

[Poor Student]

Mypost, you're still banging on about 0.8% voting weight as though if it was only just at 1% or at its previous level that makes any practical difference. Our voting weight as it was, is and will be renders us an irrelevance already in a straight vote. You're splitting hairs and you know that. We exert our influence in negotiating away from the voting table.

[BohsPartisan]

I paused the vid when I saw who it was. I wouldn't give him the publicity. Same goes for his leader. He is partly responsible for 200k jobs lost, and savage cuts in salaries due to levies.

I would be inclined to agree with the comments below though.

You should have watched the whole thing so. Shows what a liar he is.

[John83]

i am deffinately not looking forward to the next decade, but you whats great for creating jobs, a nice big war

England's still paying off its debt from the Napoleonic wars. Can you imagine the chancers here dealing with that kind of deficit?

[mypost]

You're splitting hairs and you know that. We exert our influence in negotiating away from the voting table.

Part of the argument the other side made, was that the vote would leave us at the "centre of power" in the EU. It entails our strength there been slashed by 60%. We find it difficult enough to make our voice heard in the EU already, now we've made it more difficult for us to preserve the little influence we have.

Having goodwill is all very well, but decisions made have to be voted on. Our voting weight's are insignificant compared to bigger states, decisons we had until yesterday, a stronger say in.

[KevB76]

I tuned into RTE 1 on Saturday morning to see how things were going with Lisbon, after a little while I was getting really annoyed with all the interviews and what have you so i switched to RTE 2

...Shaun the Sheep was on and the story involved a flock of sheep in one field, and a few pigs in another, separated by a high wall. There was an apple tree on the pigs side. The pigs handed over a full sack to the sheep, who were delighted until they emptied the contents to find only a load of sh!t.

Very appropriate I thought, it summed up my thoughts on the whole Lisbon saga.

[dahamsta]

[mypost]

Saw some of the photos of the government's side supporters celebrating their "victory" in Dublin Castle last week, waving tricolours. Brussels won, Dublin lost, but they couldn't even get the right flag out to celebrate.

Incidentally post-vote, there haven't been many jobs created, or investment secured. Instead, Aer Lingus announced 700-odd redundancies, GE Money shed 65, 80 more at Technotree, Gallic Distributors let 30 go, ABB announced another 60 will be on the dole queue next year.

It is fair to assume given the constituency returns, that many of those employees believed FF's promises again and ticked the top box last week. Now, they're seeing very clearly the reality of the outcome.

[Mr A]

They had every right to wave the triclour if they felt the result was a good one for Ireland. Especially given that many on the No side very obviously had zero interest in the welfare of our nation.

Incidentally, the few job announcements since the vote are as utterly unrelated to the result as the losses. These decisions are not made overnight.

I do seem to recall reports of there being a slight improvement in the credit agencies view of our credit-worthiness related to the vote though.

[mypost]

People didn't vote on our credit rating, as it means nothing to most people. They voted because they were promised jobs, investment, and economic recovery for a Yes vote. Instead jobs and investment haven't fallen off every tree in Ireland, but been as easy to find as needles in haystacks. Let alone recovery.

When the country's soul and power was handed over to Brussels last week, the victors would be better off waving the blue and yellow flag. They got their result, so waving the Irish flag is rubbing the nose in imo.

[OneRedArmy]

Saw some of the photos of the government's side supporters celebrating their "victory" in Dublin Castle last week, waving tricolours. Brussels won, Dublin lost, but they couldn't even get the right flag out to celebrate.

Incidentally post-vote, there haven't been many jobs created, or investment secured. Instead, Aer Lingus announced 700-odd redundancies, GE Money shed 65, 80 more at Technotree, Gallic Distributors let 30 go, ABB announced another 60 will be on the dole queue next year.

It is fair to assume given the constituency returns, that many of those employees believed FF's promises again and ticked the top box last week. Now, they're seeing very clearly the reality of the outcome.

Likewise, I haven't yet noticed any of the apocalyptic predictions of the No side taking place yet. How long after the Treaty is ratified should I expect to be conscripted to a European army/have my earnings cut to €1.84 an hour/see corporation tax increased...........?

Lisbon is meaningless. Europe is, was and always has been controlled by the French and the Germans. The EU will go in whatever direction they want, and its as likely that will be backwards as forwards. But make no mistake, we don't count for a damn. We didn't influence anything and we never have. The next important EU decision will be by the next Tory Government in the UK, possibly a referendum as to whether to remain within the EU. Unless we decide to go back to a protectionist De Valera-type economy, we'll be a helpless bystander in that discussion as well.

The whole Lisbon farce (both episodes) was the final nail in the coffin of the hubris and self-importance that surrounded the Celtic Tiger.

[bennocelt]

They had every right to wave the triclour if they felt the result was a good one for Ireland. Especially given that many on the No side very obviously had zero interest in the welfare of our nation.

.

Please

[Mr A]

You really think that UKIP and the British Conservatives give a toss about Ireland?

[mypost]

Likewise, I haven't yet noticed any of the apocalyptic predictions of the No side taking place yet.

Is the Treaty in force yet?

The country was instructed to obey the government, in order to provide jobs and investment, which itself isn't subject to the treaty been enforced. Most people did as they were told. The No side said that jobs and investment wouldn't arise, and surprise surprise, hasn't.

Yet we were told, that it was our side who were "lieing and scaremongering".

[pineapple stu]

mypost, I also voted no, but you're really stretching the bounds of credibility with your increasingly embarrassing posts. Two comments in particular, if I may -

Is the Treaty in force yet?

So you're saying once it comes into force, then the apocalyptic predictions will come to pass?

The No side said that jobs and investment wouldn't arise, and surprise surprise, hasn't.

While I agree that the Yes side's claim of jobs and investment were just pandering to people's fears, you simply can't say that your counter-argument (that jobs and investment won't come about) has come to pass because, after a week, we've had no extra jobs. Things simply don't happen immediately. Let's see how things stand in, say, a year's time. By then, it'll be evident if Lisbon was the cure-all the Yes side made it out to be, or if actually the hole we've dug ourselves is one we'll have to lie in a while longer.

I'd respectfully request that you put a little more thought into your posts rather than jumping to populist, easily-refuted arguments.

* - (the first time; wasn't around the second time, but would still have voted no)

[mypost]

While I agree that the Yes side's claim of jobs and investment were just pandering to people's fears, you simply can't say that your counter-argument (that jobs and investment won't come about) has come to pass because, after a week, we've had no extra jobs. Things simply don't happen immediately. Let's see how things stand in, say, a year's time. By then, it'll be evident if Lisbon was the cure-all the Yes side made it out to be

I know it's just a week afterwards, but do you honestly think that argument will be much different after a year? The reality is, there are no jobs, there is no investment, and there is nothing at the moment suggesting that there will be for the foreseeable future. Therefore, the other side's arguments on the issue are, and will be false.

[pineapple stu]

The other side's arguments being false is no justification for stooping to below their level though.

[bennocelt]

You really think that UKIP and the British Conservatives give a toss about Ireland?

What the hell are you on about!!!! What they do in the Uk is of no concern in an Irish referendum on Lisbon
Your argument was silly - I mean flip the coin - do you think Cowen and co are great patriots and all, what with selling the country down the river (NAMA)