Lisbon Treaty

[dahamsta]

I was quite happy with the EU as it stood. If "enlargement", as they like to call it, really was necessary then well and good, but I can't think of a valid reason for taking it to the level it has, apart from the obvious. Let's be honest, it's just a different type of imperialism -- the gung-ho eurocrats might not be taking these territories by force, but their need for more and more and more is exactly the same as the Romans, the Ottomans, etc.

Children is another good comparison. Want Want Want.

adam

[Mr A]

For one thing I do not accept that it's a form of imperialism- but even if it is, it has generally brought peace and prosperity to its members while forcing them to put a lot of stuff like human rights relatively straight to join so why not keep expanding?

The question 'what have the Romans ever done for us?' spring to mind!

[mypost]

For one thing I do not accept that it's a form of imperialism- but even if it is, it has generally brought peace and prosperity to its members while forcing them to put a lot of stuff like human rights relatively straight to join so why not keep expanding?

What the EU has done is not that relevant to the Lisbon question. This is about the future direction and governance of the EU. Instead of everyone co-operating on the basis of equality, this is France and Germany's attempt to control the rest of Europe. And I don't see everyone else taking it very well, when the decisions are implemented.

[Mr A]

What the EU has done is not that relevant to the Lisbon question. This is about the future direction and governance of the EU. Instead of everyone co-operating on the basis of equality, this is France and Germany's attempt to control the rest of Europe. And I don't see everyone else taking it very well, when the decisions are implemented.

In fairness, even if what you say is true it beats the crap out of their previous attempts to control the whole of Europe!

[OneRedArmy]

What the EU has done is not that relevant to the Lisbon question.

Lost.
For.
Words.

[dahamsta]

The question 'what have the Romans ever done for us?' spring to mind!

That's a fair point, but by the same token some administrations have done well by society, and then strayed. I don't want to pick the obvious one for fear of invoking Godwin, but a more current example like Chavez serves just as well -- if ever there was an administration on a knife edge of going the wrong way, it's Chavez. Now I wouldn't go as far as to say the EU is at that level yet, but their behaviour of late - particularly since this damned constitution reared it's ugly head - has been vaguely Early Dictatorial and eminently Reichsministerium für Volksaufklärung und Propaganda.

Oops, there I've gone and done it anyway...

adam

[mypost]

Lost.
For.
Words.

[OneRedArmy]

That's a fair point, but by the same token some administrations have done well by society, and then strayed. I don't want to pick the obvious one for fear of invoking Godwin, but a more current example like Chavez serves just as well -- if ever there was an administration on a knife edge of going the wrong way, it's Chavez. Now I wouldn't go as far as to say the EU is at that level yet, but their behaviour of late - particularly since this damned constitution reared it's ugly head - has been vaguely Early Dictatorial and eminently Reichsministerium für Volksaufklärung und Propaganda.

Oops, there I've gone and done it anyway...

adam

Administrations that stray generally have an army behind them to back up their crazy schemes.

The EU has a putative rapid reaction force, that still reports through it's own national chain of command.

[ped_ped]

Lost.
For.
Words.

Explain, please?

[Dodge]

Explain, please?

It just means he speechless.

Without speech.

Speech is nowhere to be found...

[ped_ped]

Funny...

I get the turn of phrase. But why is he speechless that somebody has decided not to repay the EU with total obedience to their will???

[Dodge]

Funny...

I get the turn of phrase. But why is he speechless that somebody has decided not to repay the EU with total obedience to their will???

He's not. He's speechless that someone would think that the work the EU does/has done has no connection with the Lisbon treaty (as mypost posted)

Regardless of how you vote, its ridiculous to think that the work of the EU and the Lisbon treaty aren't intrinsically linked

[ped_ped]

Lisbon is linked to how the EU does work now, but it's a moot point what it has done in the past, in relation to the Treaty, and shouldn't influence your vote.

[Dodge]

So we should all vote for a politicians based on prospectus and completely forgot how they've performed over the years?

I doubt mypost would agree...

[OneRedArmy]

Dodge made my point far more eloquently than I ever could.

People who ignore history are doomed to repeat its mistakes.

That quote is semi-relevant, but I kinda like it so I thought I'd use it.

Seriously though, I think ignoring the past is ridiculous.

[dahamsta]

Administrations that stray generally have an army behind them to back up their crazy schemes.

The EU has a putative rapid reaction force, that still reports through it's own national chain of command.

Right now, yes. I did say Early Dictatorial. I'm sure you don't believe the EU is seeking powers beyond their needs, and that's fine; but I do.

[mypost]

He's not. He's speechless that someone would think that the work the EU does/has done has no connection with the Lisbon treaty (as mypost posted)

Regardless of how you vote, its ridiculous to think that the work of the EU and the Lisbon treaty aren't intrinsically linked

We know the EU was good for Ireland. We know that it gave us funding, as it does everywhere else. We know that it helped build infrastructure. But that's a history lesson and not what we're voting on. We're not writing a thank you card or a grant application. You're being asked if you want the EU's future to be decided according to what's set out in the Lisbon Treaty/Constitution? Do you want Ireland's already limited influence to be eroded even more? That's what the vote boils down to. Because one thing is certain, it's not going to affect our economy good or bad.

[Dodge]

Go on then, tell us how Ireland's influence won't be lessened by a no vote if thats your criteria.

[dahamsta]

You wouldn't be suggesting the EU is anti-democratic now Dodge, would you?

[Dodge]

You wouldn't be suggesting the EU is anti-democratic now Dodge, would you?

I didn't mean to.

I happen to think Ireland has precious little influence in europe.

I voted no last time, but one of the few things i liked was the streamlining of commissionaires, and I think its pretty stoopid to have one per country