Shane Duffy D Norwich b.1992

[ifk101]

By contrast, there are arguably fewer decent quality CB's ahead of him in the Senior ROI squad (not that he's remotely close to playing at that level for either team).

Your list of names (McLean - who???, Duff - Damien???, Cathcart - is he with AC Milan??, McAuley - sorry but once again who???) is scrapping the bottom of the quantity not quality barrel there EG. For instance we have plenty of Championship standard players in that position, namely; Paul McShane, Alex Bruce, Darren O'Dea, Paddy McCarthy, Gary Doherty, Damien Delaney, Eddie Nolan etc etc all of which are would be superstars in a NI jersey.

Anyhow, when it comes to "divided loyalties", I'm pleased that NW is treating him well

... surely that goes without saying

and that Duffy looks to be the sort to appreciate that and reciprocate. It may mean that he opts permanently for us.

However, if he should eventually throw in his lot with his father's country, then I would wish him well.

He's only a young lad that potentially can have a successful career in the professional game ahead of him. Best of luck to him.

[Drumcondra 69er]

Your list of names (McLean - who???, Duff - Damien???, Cathcart - is he with AC Milan??, McAuley - sorry but once again who???) is scrapping the bottom of the quantity not quality barrel there EG. For instance we have plenty of Championship standard players in that position, namely; Paul McShane, Alex Bruce, Darren O'Dea, Paddy McCarthy, Gary Doherty, Damien Delaney, Eddie Nolan etc etc all of which are would be superstars in a NI jersey.

Beat me to it.

[Gather round]

Nobody who plays in English Division 2 is a superstar, pretty much by definition. It's a second-rate league. Some players might have been in the past or become thus in the future, of course. No offence to the lists of NI and RoI internationals above.

Craig Cathcart plays for Manchester United, not Milan. Easy mistake to make. He was loaned to Plymouth Argyle last term.

[paul_oshea]

so he plays for Plymouth Argyle then.

[Gather round]

so he plays for Plymouth Argyle then

Yes, as I said. Strictly speaking, he's returned to ManU.

[Den Perry]

Your list of names (McLean - who???, Duff - Damien???, Cathcart - is he with AC Milan??, McAuley - sorry but once again who???) is scrapping the bottom of the quantity not quality barrel there EG. For instance we have plenty of Championship standard players in that position, namely; Paul McShane, Alex Bruce, Darren O'Dea, Paddy McCarthy, Gary Doherty, Damien Delaney, Eddie Nolan etc etc all of which are would be superstars in a NI jersey.



... surely that goes without saying



He's only a young lad that potentially can have a successful career in the professional game ahead of him. Best of luck to him.

add to that list Clifford Byrne

[EalingGreen]

Your list of names (McLean - who???, Duff - Damien???, Cathcart - is he with AC Milan??, McAuley - sorry but once again who???) is scrapping the bottom of the quantity not quality barrel there EG. For instance we have plenty of Championship standard players in that position, namely; Paul McShane, Alex Bruce, Darren O'Dea, Paddy McCarthy, Gary Doherty, Damien Delaney, Eddie Nolan etc etc all of which are would be superstars in a NI jersey.

The point I was making was that in ordinary circumstances, Duffy wouldn't have got anywhere near a senior start. That is because he is behind:
1. Aaron Hughes - EPL regular for over 10 years, nearly 70 caps;
2. Jonny Evans - I assume you've heard of him;
3. Stephen Craigan - Average club player, but Captain of Motherwell (3rd and 7th in SPL last two seasons) and a "Gary Breen" for NI (40 caps);
4. Gareth McAuley - Ipswich Town Captain, a dozen caps;
5. Michael Duff - Nearly 200 appearances for Burnley (usually CB, sometimes RB), a regular choice in team which won promotion to EPL - 20-odd caps;
6. Chris Baird - Can't get into Fulham defence (squad player), but Southampton's POTY when there, 30+ caps;
7. Brian McLean - Motherwell regular (injury permitting);
8. Craig Cathcart (20) - MU Young POTY, captained FIFA Europe U-18 XI vs African XI, season in Belgium at MU's feeder club, followed by last season at Plymouth, where he was Young POTY - exactly the same career path/age progress as Jonny Evans/Darron Gibson;
9. George McCartney - Regular EPL LB, who has also filled-in as CB (30-odd caps).

On top of that, there are at least 3 other CB's who play Lge1/Lge2, who while nowhere near good enough for international football, would nonetheless have been ahead of Duffy, had the Italy match counted for anything.

Generally, I'm not claiming any of the above to be Superstars (Evans will be, mind), I'm not even claiming that they are better than their ROI counterparts. But our players can't be that bad, otherwise how do you account for our results, which over the last 4-5 years have been consistently better than ROI's?

[livehead1]

1. Aaron Hughes - EPL regular for over 10 years, nearly 70 caps;
2. Jonny Evans - I assume you've heard of him;
3. Stephen Craigan - Average club player, but Captain of Motherwell (3rd and 7th in SPL last two seasons) and a "Gary Breen" for NI (40 caps);
4. Gareth McAuley - Ipswich Town Captain, a dozen caps;
5. Michael Duff - Nearly 200 appearances for Burnley (usually CB, sometimes RB), a regular choice in team which won promotion to EPL - 20-odd caps;
6. Chris Baird - Can't get into Fulham defence (squad player), but Southampton's POTY when there, 30+ caps;
7. Brian McLean - Motherwell regular (injury permitting);
8. Craig Cathcart (20) - MU Young POTY, captained FIFA Europe U-18 XI vs African XI, season in Belgium at MU's feeder club, followed by last season at Plymouth, where he was Young POTY - exactly the same career path/age progress as Jonny Evans/Darron Gibson;
9. George McCartney - Regular EPL LB, who has also filled-in as CB (30-odd caps).

1 - Good player
2 - Good player
3 - Don't compare him to Breen; Breen played in the EPL for years, Craigan wouldn't get a start at a top 6 championship club.
4 - Very average player.
5 - Lets see how he gets on next season; looks pretty decent though.
6 - Poor player, not good enough for the highest level of club football never mind international football.

I won't go on with the rest as they get worse.

[EalingGreen]

3 - Don't compare him [Craigan] to Breen; Breen played in the EPL for years, Craigan wouldn't get a start at a top 6 championship club.

I was not comparing (the superior) Breen directly with Craigan; rather I was citing Craigan as a player who, like GB, consistently "plays above himself" in a green shirt. Effectively it was a compliment to GB, a player I admire (though I could point out that he spent only a third of his career was with EPL clubs, all of whom - Coventry, WHU and Sunderland - were relegated during his time there)

4 - [McAuley] Very average player.

Perhaps, but as our 5th or 6th choice CB, he's still captaining one of the better Championship clubs, a level at which several ROI players have been capped, including most recently, (CB) Sean St. Ledger.

5 - [Duff] Lets see how he gets on next season; looks pretty decent though.

My point being that he can't get a game for NI at CB, despite that being his best position.

6 - [Baird] Poor player, not good enough for the highest level of club football never mind international football.

Your opinion, but he certainly looked OK to me in our victories over England, Spain, Denmark, Poland and Slovenia...

I won't go on with the rest as they get worse.

Maybe so, but there's no getting away from the fact that McLean, our 7th or 8th choice CB, is an SPL regular - a level at which ROI players have been capped and McCartney is an established EPL FB, whom several managers have thought fit to fill in at CB.
As for Cathcart, his career at MU is spookily similar to that of Jonny Evans and Darron Gibson before him. However, when the same age/stage as Cathcart is now, Evans could only get games for NI at FB, and DG had already made his debut for ROI; whereas Cathcart has yet to get a senior NI cap.

And in any case, even if you think I am irredeemably biased (fair enough, btw ), there is no denying that all of those players are ahead of Duffy in the queue to play CB for NI.

Therefore, not only will Duffy not play in any of NI's 3 remaining WCQ's, but at 17, I cannot see him playing in any of our Qualifiers for Euro2012, either, unless something very exceptional happens.

In which case, his prospects of gaining senior caps for ROI anytime soon would be hardly any less, were he to switch (imo).

[RiffRaff]

I think some of the posters here are being a bit dismissive of NI. Over the last 5 years they have produced 7 or 8 performances / results that are better than anything we have done and have done it with a majority of players who are relatively unknown. I also think their underage system is working much much better than ours. I've heard of Cathcart as a highly rated youngster at Man U and long with the Evans brothers and Gibson, thats 4 players the NI underage system has produced that look like playing a part at the biggest club in the UK. Some of the other pleyers mentioned in this thread are no big names but have proved themselves more at international level than ours. i cant help think that Duffy may feel he has more chance of playing in a finals with NI than us. Maybe instead of trying to nick their players, the FAI should be trying to ask for some tips?

[ifk101]

Therefore, not only will Duffy not play in any of NI's 3 remaining WCQ's, but at 17, I cannot see him playing in any of our Qualifiers for Euro2012, either, unless something very exceptional happens.

In which case, his prospects of gaining senior caps for ROI anytime soon would be hardly any less, were he to switch (imo).

Considering he was part of a Northern Ireland squad that played a senior international against Italy a couple of weeks ago, he obviously is a lot closer to playing a senior international with Northern Ireland than with Ireland. Was he not togged out and sitting on the bench for that game - surely you can't get any closer than that to playing a senior international? He was also part of the NI B squad that played an international against Scotland a few months back. Whilst he may not start a senior international anytime soon, he clearly is in the thoughts of Nigel Worthlesston.

I am irredeemably biased

Excellent point and well made. .

[EalingGreen]

Considering he was part of a Northern Ireland squad that played a senior international against Italy a couple of weeks ago, he obviously is a lot closer to playing a senior international with Northern Ireland than with Ireland. Was he not togged out and sitting on the bench for that game - surely you can't get any closer than that to playing a senior international? He was also part of the NI B squad that played an international against Scotland a few months back. Whilst he may not start a senior international anytime soon, he clearly is in the thoughts of Nigel Worthlesston.

As far as I can tell, the highest level Duffy has played for NI is at U-19. That is, he hasn't even managed to get into our U-21 side.
Nor has he managed to get into our "B" team. Fyi, our last "B" International featured an experimental team vs Scotland in May, where our 2 CB's were Chris Casement (21 year old Wycombe loanee) and 22 y.o Rory McArdle of Rochdale.

The only reason Duffy got anywhere near the "Senior" team in Italy was because it was arranged so late that virtually ALL our senior squad were unavailable, so that we had just 3 senior outfield players available: Healy (carrying an injury, so didn't last the 1st half), Johnson (played out of position) and McCann (flew in on the morning of the game).
As it was, Duffy was the only one of 18 players who didn't get a run out. The 2 CB's were both debutants - Coates of Crusaders (carrying an injury, never featured for NI at any level before) and Casement (since released by Ipswich). When you consider the other novice kids who got caps in that game (8 debutants), it is crystal clear that Duffy was only brought along for the ride.
Consequently, and considering all the numerous CB's ahead of him, Duffy is nowhere near getting a senior NI cap in anything like normal circumstances.

Further, it was only because he is dual qualified that I mentioned in passing that he is as close to getting an ROI cap as an NI one i.e. not close at all.

However, if he should continue to progress over the next 3 to 4 years, such that he might begin to edge into consideration for a full cap, imo he might find it just as easy to get into the ROI team as the NI team, since Duffy's position is one where we are especially strong. I would not make a similar claim if he played in most other positions.

P.S. Iirc, there were a couple of players who got ROI caps on the US Tour two years ago, who never featured before or since. Don't recall all the names, but do you consider eg Joe Lapira to be still in contention for an international cap? Or would you put that down to exceptional circumstances, as I do Duffy's (non-playing) inclusion in the NI squad in Pisa?

[ifk101]

P.S. Iirc, there were a couple of players who got ROI caps on the US Tour two years ago, who never featured before or since. Don't recall all the names, but do you consider eg Joe Lapira to be still in contention for an international cap? Or would you put that down to exceptional circumstances, as I do Duffy's non-playing inclusion in the NI squad in Pisa?

It really depends on how you see it EG. On the one hand you have a team that has been handed a glamour friendly away to the reigning World Champions and on the other hand you have a team that going through the motions in an end of season tour on the other side of the World. Contrary to your opinion it wasn't in exceptional circumstances that Lapira was capped. Stan wanted to tie him to us in case he turned out to be a "player". As it is Joe Lapira is still going strong in the lower Norwegian leagues so you never know .

Anyways the fact remains that Duffy was on the bench against Italy so he obviously is nearer a senior cap for NI than he is with us. The rest of your post is idle assumption and speculation.

[EalingGreen]

It really depends on how you see it EG. On the one hand you have a team that has been handed a glamour friendly away to the reigning World Champions and on the other hand you have a team that going through the motions in an end of season tour on the other side of the World.

Being "handed a glamour friendly away to the reigning World Champions" is one way of looking at it, but I suspect NW looked at it rather differently, since there is no doubt that he did not want this game.
In fact, the only reason it was staged (and v.late in the day, at that) is because:
1. Italy needed a warm-up for the Confed.Cup, plus a game against similar opposition to ROI for their WCQ's;
2. The IFA needed the £200k they pocketed, plus the promise of a money-spinning return in Belfast some time.
Therefore, in an attempt to make a virtue out of necessity, NW picked what was basically an U-21 team. The fact that he also included his only 3 available senior players, was to prevent a thrashing against what was essentially an Italy "B" team.

Contrary to your opinion it wasn't in exceptional circumstances that Lapira was capped. Stan wanted to tie him to us in case he turned out to be a "player". As it is Joe Lapira is still going strong in the lower Norwegian leagues so you never know .

He might have a cap or two, but we both know that Lapira is barely more of an international class player than I am!
And the "exceptional circumstances" of his getting capped was that he was selected by a man who was completely out of his depth. (Unless, of course, you consider Stan to have been "an international manager"? )

Anyways the fact remains that Duffy was on the bench against Italy so he obviously is nearer a senior cap for NI than he is with us. The rest of your post is idle assumption and speculation.

OK, simple question:
If Duffy is that "near" to becoming an NI international, how do you explain the fact that he still hasn't got into our U-21 team, never mind our "B" team, even when those teams are fielding experimental line-ups in low-key friendlies?

The fact remains that despite (his non-selection in) Pisa, Duffy is nowhere near getting a full cap for NI (or ROI).

Beyond that, the best one can say is that NW seemingly thinks he may have the potential to develop to international class (for us, at least) some time in future.

In which case, he is giving him as much experience as possible, partly perhaps to discourage him from opting for ROI?

[youngirish]

Generally, I'm not claiming any of the above to be Superstars (Evans will be, mind), I'm not even claiming that they are better than their ROI counterparts. But our players can't be that bad, otherwise how do you account for our results, which over the last 4-5 years have been consistently better than ROI's?

Are you seriously claiming that for 4-5 years NI's results have been better than ours? If you believe that EG you really are deluded. Does this 4-5 years include the time we missed out on World Cup qualification by a single point and you finished with a measley 9 points from 10 games and third last in a group containing Wales and Azerbaijan? Grow up. it's arguable you were even better when we had that clown Stan in charge. Yes you had a couple of decent results but you also got hammered by Iceland twice and were beaten by Latvia.

We have also been infinitely better than you under Trapattoni who has been in charge for nearly 18 months now. Where are you getting this 4-5 years from again or are you now just using the rankings which change very month (weren't we ahead of you for a long time up until recently anyway?) rankings that you have stated before you don't lend much credence to.

Grow up.

[Gather round]

it's arguable you were even better when we had that clown Stan in charge. Yes you had a couple of decent results but also got hammered by Iceland twice and were beaten by Latvia

We got three more points over a 12 game league, so yes I think we were better in the last completed series (Euro 08). I mean, what better/ other test is there?

We have also been infinitely better than you under Trapattoni who has been in charge for nearly 18 months now so. You really are clueless and know nothing about football

Both teams have 13 points from seven matches. Hardly suggestive of one being "infinitely better".

[youngirish]

We got three more points over a 12 game league, so yes I think we were better in the last completed series (Euro 08). I mean, what better/ other test is there?

And this qualification series lasted 4-5 years did it?

Both teams have 13 points from seven matches. Hardly suggestive of one being "infintely better".

Your friendly results have been dire in that time and all your difficult games have still to come so don't get your hopes up too much. You've played San Marino twice, not quite the same as taking 6 points of Georgia imo. I'd be surprised if you get more than a single point from your remaining games. 3 at the most.

The bottom line is your results have not been consistently better than ours over a 4 - 5 year period or anything like it. You've had a brief spell of about a year when we had someone retarded in charge of our national team when you had a couple of good results against decent opposition but overall you finished about as far from qualifying as we did. Personally I wouldn't let it go to my head.

[gspain]

And this qualification series lasted 4-5 years did it?


The bottom line is your results have not been consistently better than ours over a 4 - 5 year period or anything like it. You've had a brief spell of about a year when we had someone retarded in charge of our national team when you had a couple of good results against decent opposition but overall you finished about as far from qualifying as we did. Personally I wouldn't let it go to my head.

Your reference to one of our former managers is offensive.

I don't think Northern Ireland have been better than us over the past 4-5 years but unfortunately the FIFA rankings suggest otherwise. They have actually managed to beat decent opposition in the period incl England, Spain, Sweden and Denmark. They have also lost to Latvia and Iceland.

We have imo a better chance of making the playoffs and consequently a better chance of going to the world cup. I think that would be the time to make such claims. Maybe after we beat them in the last football match ever in Croke Park to qualify for south Africa would be a good time to gloat.

[youngirish]

Your reference to one of our former managers is offensive.

I wholeheartedly apologise to all the retarded people out there for comparing them unfavourably with our ex manager. I'm sorry.

I don't think Northern Ireland have been better than us over the past 4-5 years but unfortunately the FIFA rankings suggest otherwise. They have actually managed to beat decent opposition in the period incl England, Spain, Sweden and Denmark. They have also lost to Latvia and Iceland.

As I stated earlier nearly all those results were in a period of 12 months not 4-5 years.

[ifk101]

NW picked what was basically an U-21 team. The fact that he also included his only 3 available senior players, was to prevent a thrashing against what was essentially an Italy "B" team.

Well good for NW. Didn't stop the thrashing though .

He might have a cap or two, but we both know that Lapira is barely more of an international class player than I am!
And the "exceptional circumstances" of his getting capped was that he was selected by a man who was completely out of his depth. (Unless, of course, you consider Stan to have been "an international manager"?)

Joe Lapira is currently playing at a higher level than certain players that have been capped in the very recent past by NI - so he's easily good enough for NI.
As for Stan, and as I pointed out to you before, Stan's competitive record is better than Worthlesston's. Stan was clearly out of his depth but so is Worthlesston. Long may Nigel's reign continue . But the one good thing that came out of Stan's reign was that the pressure was on the FAI to appoint somebody who knew what he was doing. And in fairness they delivered on that. So if we get to SA we can look back on Stan's reign with fondness.

OK, simple question:
If Duffy is that "near" to becoming an NI international, how do you explain the fact that he still hasn't got into our U-21 team, never mind our "B" team, even when those teams are fielding experimental line-ups in low-key friendlies?

Was he not sitting on the bench for a senior international game against Italy?

The fact remains that despite (his non-selection in) Pisa, Duffy is nowhere near getting a full cap for NI (or ROI).

No that's your opinion. Fact is that he was sitting on the bench for the Italy game and therefore could easily have played if NW chose to play him.

Beyond that, the best one can say is that NW seemingly thinks he may have the potential to develop to international class (for us, at least) some time in future.

In which case, he is giving him as much experience as possible, partly perhaps to discourage him from opting for ROI?

Well he's obviously good enough now to make the NI senior squad. Whether he will one day be good enough for us is an entirely different matter altogether. But best of luck to the chap.