Air France Airbus missing over the Atlantic

[Dodge]

A sick in the head friend of mine said "its like in Lost where the plane goes missing".

In fairness saying it reminds them of "Lost" isn't really sick at all. I'm sure it popped into the head of a huge amount of people.

[pete]

In fairness saying it reminds them of "Lost" isn't really sick at all. I'm sure it popped into the head of a huge amount of people.

Especially when they mentioned islands off the continent...

[passinginterest]

In fairness saying it reminds them of "Lost" isn't really sick at all. I'm sure it popped into the head of a huge amount of people.

First thing I though of and have said it to numerous people, well maybe second thing after "that's awful". I do tend to have a particularly morbid sense of humour though.

[pineapple stu]

Sky News reporting that debris has been found, although it's undetermined what it's from.

[anto1208]

True, but I'd have thought that the first thing you'd do when the plane was crashing was to radio in saying that the plane was crashing. There were three pilots/co-pilots, so (and I don't profess to be a pilot expert or anything) I would have thought two could try stop the plane crashing and one could radio in. Even if, hypothetically, they'd brought the plane to a safe landing in the middle of the Atlantic, that's still worthless without backup help.

Could the short circuit they are blaming have knocked out the radios ?
Or what i think may have happened was the cabin pressure in the **** pit is different to the rest of the plane new security feature after 9/11 so maybe that went the pilots would nod off no one could get in because of the new security doors and the plane crashed.

Either way its pretty horrible

[pineapple stu]

Hee hee - **** pit.

I wouldn't have added a safety feature designed to knock the pilots out first, to be honest. Radio being shorted out is a possibility.

Do black boxed float? Good luck finding it otherwise.

[Schumi]

Do black boxed float? Good luck finding it otherwise.

They have radio beacons I think.

[John83]

True, but I'd have thought that the first thing you'd do when the plane was crashing was to radio in saying that the plane was crashing. There were three pilots/co-pilots, so (and I don't profess to be a pilot expert or anything) I would have thought two could try stop the plane crashing and one could radio in. Even if, hypothetically, they'd brought the plane to a safe landing in the middle of the Atlantic, that's still worthless without backup help.

Probably the first thing they're supposed to do in theory, but if you have only seconds and the plane is suddenly pointed in a worryingly vertical direction... I suspect the practice is that you're not going to get anything off.

Could the short circuit they are blaming have knocked out the radios ?

I haven't seen any specifics on the short circuit, so perhaps. Not the transmitter itself - the automated signal got through - but perhaps somewhere nearer the cockpit. Still, a modern aeroplane has a lot of redundancy built in.

Or what i think may have happened was the cabin pressure in the **** pit is different to the rest of the plane new security feature after 9/11 so maybe that went the pilots would nod off no one could get in because of the new security doors and the plane crashed.

Eh? That's some pretty wild speculation. It assumes that cabin pressure dropped in the cockpit but not the main cabin. I don't know if that's even possible.

That aside, if the cockpit door opened into the cabin (I think they do), a large pressure differential would have made it very tough to open the door, regardless of other security measures. Perhaps that's what you meant though - the security measures you're referring to being something like the cockpit being hermetically sealed?

And that aside, I suspect that a plane like that, in a storm, perhaps with no radio, was not going to be saved by a plucky air hostess and a theoretical passenger struggling to get over Macho Grande.

[anto1208]

Hee hee - **** pit.

I wouldn't have added a safety feature designed to knock the pilots out first, to be honest. Radio being shorted out is a possibility.

Do black boxed float? Good luck finding it otherwise.

Dont think they intended it to work like that but with fears of gas attacks in the passenger section the c0ckpit would need to be on a seperate system. That system may have shorted out first.

Im just guessing of course i dont know what happened but they have started to find the wreckage and reports of another plane seeing the sea on fire along the same route.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0602/airfrance.html

[John83]

Do black boxed float? Good luck finding it otherwise.

No. Rated for a month of transmission at the bottom of an ocean though.

[pineapple stu]

Probably the first thing they're supposed to do in theory, but if you have only seconds and the plane is suddenly pointed in a worryingly vertical direction... I suspect the practice is that you're not going to get anything off.

Possibly, but pilots are very well trained in things going very badly wrong (and I know being in the position itself is a different matter). Here's a link to radio correspondences of crashing planes (not all fatal); I don't know how representative that is, but it does note that pilots do make radio calls when in trouble. It's been suggested as strange that no radio contact came through, which leads me to believe it must be common enough that radio contact is made.

Dont think they intended it to work like that but with fears of gas attacks in the passenger section the c0ckpit would need to be on a seperate system.

Just thinking actually - that has to be nonsense. Air hostesses go into the cockpit every now and again, and I've been on one flight where the door was left open. I've never noticed any rubber sealing around the door which would surely be necessary to keep two separate pressures. And the logic still doesn't make sense.

[anto1208]

Probably the first thing they're supposed to do in theory, but if you have only seconds and the plane is suddenly pointed in a worryingly vertical direction... I suspect the practice is that you're not going to get anything off.


I haven't seen any specifics on the short circuit, so perhaps. Not the transmitter itself - the automated signal got through - but perhaps somewhere nearer the cockpit. Still, a modern aeroplane has a lot of redundancy built in.


Eh? That's some pretty wild speculation. It assumes that cabin pressure dropped in the cockpit but not the main cabin. I don't know if that's even possible.

That aside, if the cockpit door opened into the cabin (I think they do), a large pressure differential would have made it very tough to open the door, regardless of other security measures. Perhaps that's what you meant though - the security measures you're referring to being something like the cockpit being hermetically sealed?

And that aside, I suspect that a plane like that, in a storm, perhaps with no radio, was not going to be saved by a plucky air hostess and a theoretical passenger struggling to get over Macho Grande.

I would think it would definetly be a different pressure in the cockpit due to terrorist attacks if someone in the cabin released a gas smashed a window let off some small explosion that caused cabin pressure to drop the pilot has to be able to land , the door into the cockpit is not able to be opened from the cabin side again due to terrorist attacks.

But yea all wild speculation on what actually happened.

[anto1208]

Possibly, but pilots are very well trained in things going very badly wrong (and I know being in the position itself is a different matter). Here's a link to radio correspondences of crashing planes (not all fatal); I don't know how representative that is, but it does note that pilots do make radio calls when in trouble. It's been suggested as strange that no radio contact came through, which leads me to believe it must be common enough that radio contact is made.


Just thinking actually - that has to be nonsense. Air hostesses go into the cockpit every now and again, and I've been on one flight where the door was left open. I've never noticed any rubber sealing around the door which would surely be necessary to keep two separate pressures. And the logic still doesn't make sense.

Well the pilot can let her in Im 100% sure that the door can only be opened from the pilots side otherwise a terroist only has to open the door !!

From Wiki ( i know not the best source but )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockpit

cockpits on large airliners are also physically separated from the cabin.

[John83]

Possibly, but pilots are very well trained in things going very badly wrong (and I know being in the position itself is a different matter).

I know. I guess my point is that it may have been a particularly sudden failure.

[pineapple stu]

anto - we need a certain pressure to be able to breathe and function normally. It makes no sense to say that the cockpit normally has a lower pressure than the rest of the aeroplane (as you imply noting that the pilots could nod off first and no-one else - obviously not having nodded off - could get into them); that would mean the pilots - the most important people - are normally on a lower oxygen than the rest of us. I've seen the cabin door opened from the main body of the plane in the last year, and I distinctly recall (admittedly almost 20 years ago) being led into the cockpit of a plane and noticing the same amount of oxygen there.

In accordance with the rules of the forum, can you please provide a link backing up your theory rather than propogating wild speculation?

Edit - link posted in the meantime, thanks. Mentions nothing about potential pressure differences, so I think we can put that theory to bed.

[John83]

anto - we need a certain pressure to be able to breathe and function normally. It makes no sense to say that the cockpit normally has a lower pressure than the rest of the aeroplane (as you imply noting that the pilots could nod off first and no-one else - obviously not having nodded off - could get into them); ...

I think he means that, say, if a cockpit window blew out, the cockpit might be the only part of the plane to lose pressure because the cockpit is substantially separate from the rest of the plane for security reasons.

Anyway, this line of speculation is fairly pointless, and I'd suggest we return to commenting on news as the facts come in.

[pineapple stu]

I know. I guess my point is that it may have been a particularly sudden failure.

Which brings me back to the original point that it wasn't sudden enough that people didn't have time to realise that something was happening, take their phones out of their pockets, turn them on and send texts home.

I think he means that, say, if a cockpit window blew out, the cockpit might be the only part of the plane to lose pressure because the cockpit is substantially separate from the rest of the plane for security reasons.

Hmm. It's possible, although it's not exactly in line with what he was suggesting. I agree with this, though -

Anyway, this line of speculation is fairly pointless, and I'd suggest we return to commenting on news as the facts come in.

- although speculation and gossip is what we as a nation do best.

[anto1208]

anto - we need a certain pressure to be able to breathe and function normally. It makes no sense to say that the cockpit normally has a lower pressure than the rest of the aeroplane (as you imply noting that the pilots could nod off first and no-one else - obviously not having nodded off - could get into them); that would mean the pilots - the most important people - are normally on a lower oxygen than the rest of us. I've seen the cabin door opened from the main body of the plane in the last year, and I distinctly recall (admittedly almost 20 years ago) being led into the cockpit of a plane and noticing the same amount of oxygen there.

In accordance with the rules of the forum, can you please provide a link backing up your theory rather than propogating wild speculation?

Edit - link posted in the meantime, thanks. Mentions nothing about potential pressure differences, so I think we can put that theory to bed.

Stu will you please read what i post. ( ps i like the way you tell me to back up what im saying with links then make your own statements with out any links !!! genius )

1. The security features on the cockpit changed after 9/11 what happened 20 years ago has no bearing at all . The door is now locked from the inside.

http://www.allbusiness.com/transport...4133778-1.html

Requires cockpit doors to remain locked. The door will be designed to prevent passengers from opening it without the pilot's permission. An internal locking device will be designed so it can be unlocked only from inside the cockpit


2. i didnt say the pilots have lower pressure in the cockpit, i said it may be seperate and if the short circut or what ever happened had caused the pressure in the cockpit to drop the pilots would nod off this could explain the lack of any radio communication but people in the cabin could still send texts. This was only a reply to someone else's suggestion that text messages where sent.

And i did say that it was only my theory on what may have happened same as everyone else is just giving their thoughts on what may have happened as not one single person here knows what happened does that mean that no one can post in this thread ????????.


Now i think i have done enough googling for airplane/cockpit door security features to get me a visit from the FBI.

[pineapple stu]

( ps i like the way you tell me to back up what im saying with links then make your own statements with out any links !!! genius )

I think "I saw" counts as a link. As does "Sky News reports", and the links that I've posted. Your posts were technical assumptions, which is different.

(Also, using punctuation would aid your point not getting lost en route).

Anyways, back on topic.

[anto1208]

I think "I saw" counts as a link. As does "Sky News reports", and the links that I've posted. Your posts were technical assumptions, which is different.

(Also, using punctuation would aid your point not getting lost en route).

Anyways, back on topic.

It actually doesnt. Not when you say things like i saw a door open 20 years ago