QuoteI'm not belittling teams like Benfica or Stuttgart, i'm just saying they are not "world class" as our manager is constanly referred to as.Originally Posted by Jicked
So they're not Man Utd, Barcelona, Liverpool or someone else you've heard Andy Gray say has a good chance of winning the Champions League? Belittling teams like Benfica and Stuttgart just shows how out of touch some Irish fans are.
Trap should be more experimental, call up more youth.
Why isn't Trap calling up Carsley, he'd make the difference and boss Bulgaria off the pitch.
McShane and Kilbane are two of our worst ever fullbacks.
Why don't we play a free flowing attacking game?
I'm not belittling teams like Benfica or Stuttgart, i'm just saying they are not "world class" as our manager is constanly referred to as.
You referred to them as mediocre. Benfica were Portuguese champions under Trapattoni, Stuttgart were Bundesliga winners in 2006/07.
I think people are missing my point here. My main points were simply. Has he got Irelands best 24 available to him in his squad.? IMO No. Is he tactically adept? IMO no. Is he Lucky? Very.(He might have been a genius but not any more)
My main point was that last nights"performance" was the worst I have seen in a long time, probably since Stan was in charge. (Not saying Stan was better or anything near in the same class or ever will be)
Lasty , I dont think any manager should be a dictator as he seems to be. He has his way of doing it and nothing, not even the match circumstances will dictate to him to change it.
Good managers will adapt if need be to changing circumstances in a game and he just seems to not be able to or not willing to admit he gets things wrong.
To the people that say we are doing great to be where we are , thats true but its down to luck more than good management.
There just has to be another solution for midfield. I don't know it but I'm not being paid 2 mil a year to solve it.
Well said. Another man living in the real world.
Exactly.
Trap has got the team organised and the defence at least look like they know what they should be doing compared to when Stan was in charge (although anything would be an improvement on Stan's defensive organisation). However we are no better going forward or in retaining possession than we were under Stan. In fact we may even be slightly worse.
Your correct but the only difference in defence is that Dunne and O'Shea are playing well as a unit. The left and right back positions are a big problem though.
Even if we had won last night, I don't think that you could say Trap's tactics are the reason for the result. I'm not sure that worked in Mainz and they certainly didn't work against Georgia or Cyprus.
Trap's tactics worked in Mainz, last month, and in the other games. If KK hadn't hit the target tonight, it would have worked again. It's hard on the eyes, but we have limited ability players, some of them not playing in the Premiership, and Trap's way, however ugly, is working.
A win doesn't vindicate the tactics used in the game.
I honestly think we have got the results so far because the other teams are very, very poor.
Having seen us give up so much possession against every team we have played so far, I'd expect us to do the same against the Italians, but I think they will punish us more than any team so far.
For a manager that people say is a defensive manager who isn't going to change his tactics at this stage in his career - if he has been doing it for so long, you'd expect him to be better at it.
I was against Trap at the beginning, for a number of reasons
1. I felt the Irish players would not be able to grasp what he wanted from them when they are from a completely different footballing culture; this was going to be made more difficult by the language gap.
2. His football is just awful to watch, and it is hard to know whether it is worth suffering through it even if it brings with it an increased chance of qualifying.
Any yet I would have to say that Ireland are further along now than I had thought they would be; the managerial appointment is far surpassing my expectations. To say there has been no improvement from Staunton is ludicrous.
In Trap's defence:
The standard of player available to him has generally declined with time. No Stephen Reid, no Steven ireland, no fullbacks, indifferent form from Robbie Keane. Based on a player career of 10 years, then you need at least one of 2 decent players emerging every year to keep standards up. Apart from the excellent Aidan McGeady and possibly Kevin Doyle , not a single quality player has emerged in the last 3-4 years. We are woefully inadequate in certain key positions. Central Midfield is obvious, but just as important is the lack of dynamism goign forward, which is the consequence of having such a dearth of ability at fullback, which allows opposition defenders / midfield always to double up on the 2 attacking threats Duff and McGeady. There were 2-3 players marking McGeady each time he got on the ball last night.
Andy Reid; Sometimes a manager has to draw a line over which it has to be clear players dare not tread. An ongoing problem of the last 10 years has been sloppy discipline, and a sloppy approach to game preparation. This drove Roy Keane nuts, and it is no surprise that Trap has taken a tough line with Andy Reid if he feels that he is a bad influence, and at the same time he is expendible. The portly messiah obvioulsy fits into this category in Trap's mind....I think at this point he is being overly stubborn on this point at this stage, but look how long Dave O'Leary (a far superior player) was frozen out under JC....stubborness is hardly unique to Trap; it may indeed prove useful at some stage.
Steven Ireland; who knows what is going on in this man`s brain. I would love to see him in an Ireland shirt, but I do not think it would be dignified to have the national Team coach of Trap's seniority going with begging bowl in hand to get hime back. There are enough other individuals there who are in a better place to take the initiative; Liam Brady, Richard Dunne....I am sure there are any number of people from Ireland's past who could be used to make an attempt or contacted by Steven if he wanted to come back. So bugger it, he is outside the panel for now; it don't really see what Trap can do.
Composition of the panel; Lee Carsely is not going to do anything Andrews, Gibson and Whelan are not already doing. Clinton Morrison, maybe...there are a number of players which may be worth discussing but these are all playeers from the first division in england, so they are very unlikely to make much of a difference really. All the available Irish players (with the exception of aforementioned Messiah) playing in the Premiership are in the squad, so any other discussion, keeps discussion boards going, but is essentially irrelevant.
As for the ineptitude of the performace; every Irish team I have watched has struggled when taking the lead in games. My joy at the early goal last night was tempered by the memory of; Israel home and away under Kerr (when the legendary Roy Keane was on the pitch to dictate things), Holland 2000, England 1988 and so on. So this is nothing new either. I doubt whether the slack passing and terrible lack of movement following the goal can be laid at Trap's door. Any one would have to concede that Ireland were actually better in the second half, once he'd had a chance to talk to them at half time.
1-1 last night was not disastrous for us,it is actually a good result and one I would have taken at the beginning of the qualification campaign. There has however been an unbelievable sense of despondency around after the match. I believe the reason for this is not neccessarily rational, rather it is the result of watching 94 minutes of the utterly joyless football which is Trap's trademark. I can remember watching "good" results with Stuttgart,including a 0-0 draw with Bayern, but feeling somehow empty after the match. Nobody really wants to watch this type of football. Kerr was hounded out because of it, and it was only tolerated in Charlton's time because of the relative success enjoyed.
I honestly believe now, that we are doing as well as we can, I don't really see how he could utilise the "talent" he has any better. At least, the defence is reasonably solid (given the paucity of full back talent, this is a very good achievement). We have also generated chances in each game and could easily have won yesterday. You can say what you like about possession, territory etc, but the freakish goal for Bulgaria was their only real attack of the second half and I think Given made 2 easy saves all game. If Robbie and Kevin Doyle has have been a bit more clinical we'd have a second goal and we'd have had our long awaited win aginst a second seed.
Trap is good value for money, no other manager would do any better, so cheer up and get behind the team. The players themselves might play with a little more belief and confidence, if the entire fan base / media were not moaning all the time.
Besides, what exact alternative did people have in mind?
Last edited by del_carroll; 29/03/2009 at 3:22 PM.
well said that man
Agree with you. Some relevant questions there. Incredibly, I think the Keogh substitution, far from being an attempt to snatch victory in the dying seconds, was a defensive move because of a fear we could lose.time to wake up a bit there, head. We havent beaten anyone of note yet. We have failed our first real test in this group, Bulgaria at home.
If you think Robbie Keane played well out there today then i think you are the one who needs to give up watching football. Seriously. Im a fan of Keane but he was af*ckingnonymous today bar one or two trips out to the left wing.
If youre hapy to qualify for the world cup an then get lashed out of it by any team we face then good luck to you. Im not.
There are tough questions for Trap to answer and they are not the ones about Reid or Ireland. Theyre both no-brainers to me. Trap needs to be quizzed on his inclusions as opposed to his omissions.
Why is Caleb Folan in the squad?
Why does Liam Miller get called up?
Why does McShane even get near the squad, never mind next choice full back?
What did Stokes do to be next in line after Duff's injury? What was his logic behind that choice?
Why does he never make a substitution in order to try and change the game around, replace tired players etc.
Those are just for starters. Im on my way out now to get hammered.
Seriously Jicked, if you are happy with how things are going and the job Trapatoni is doing, then good luck to you.
We settled for scoring one goal for the entire game and were deservedly punished. I've never seen a worse Irish performance, to be honest, I think peoople are being generous to Trapp if they think that was some sort of 'system'. I was there, it was dire. What the hell use is it grinding out a nil-nil, in Bari if we can't comfortably beat rubbish opposition at home.
Last edited by Fizzer; 29/03/2009 at 3:50 PM.
Le monde est a nous
If he just made one sub that could change the way were playing i'd be delighted but he never does, the only time he makes a change is to waste time or when someones injured!
It beggers belief how he could be satisfied with the 11 who started last night!
LESS OF THE BULL NOW!
This thread is comical. Should Andy Reid be in the squad? Probably. Is he the answer to our problems? No. Reid is a mediocre player in reality. Couldn't hack it at Tottenham, is hardly tearing up the trees at Sunderland. Good passer of a ball but isn't a winger by any stretch of the imagination and isn't a workhorse central midfielder. Obviously something has gone on with Reid that is keeping him out of the squad but he's not the second coming no matter what Dunphy says.
As much as I'd love him back, the onus is on Stephen Ireland to make the running.
"Trapattoni is too negative". Boo f**king hoo. What were we expecting, Ossie Ardiles? For crying out loud. Anyone read Maldini's interview with Paddy Agnew in the Times yesterday? And how he spoke about the difficulty of putting a solid defence together? Trap has managed that already.
"Trap is a dictator". F**k me, this time 18 months ago I was reading about how a strong character was needed to knock alledged prima donnas into place.
"Trap is lucky". That oft repeated Gary Player saying comes to mind.
Trap is doing a very good job with limited resources. The fact that people are on here crying and whinging about him shows what an ignorant nation we are.
Results pay the bills, and several times while defending last night, I thought, "Remember the prize on offer". I'll agree with people that we are negative, but that's the way we have to be. It's called taking your medicine. If we play all out attack against these sides as the last coach did, we'll get hockeyed. If we try to outpass the opposition, we'll get hockeyed.
Kevin Kilbane, John O'Shea, Kevin Doyle, Aiden McGeady are not world-class players. Andy Reid barely gets in the Sunderland team, the overhyped midfielder from Cork is a liar and a mental case, who has walked out on the last 3 Irish managers. Yet people want that yoke in our team.
We have to play this way, it has got us unbeaten to this stage, it's not perfect, but you don't go from scrambling wins in the last minute in San Marino to being Brazil overnight. It's getting us results, so as long as it does, it'll have my support.
I think we are now a well organised sh1t football team. We are definitely better organised than under Staunton.
It really galled me thought that yet again (and not just under trap) we totally failed to engage a team in a football match. If you have the moral courage to take on teams that you think you're better than you'll usually win. That's how Mick's teams always often played, even without Keano.
I agree with the suggestions that the 24 selected aren't our best.
Whatever about S. Reid and S. Ireland (neither being Trap's fault) I think Carsley, A. Reid, Morrisson, St. Ledger and Owen Garvan are as good as anyone in that squad if not better.
I like that he has tried Gibson but with limited success. I think he was right to pick Kelly against Georgia but he played badly so he was right to go with McShane and he played badly! Given that both have been so bad I just can't wait to see Foley play for us.
I sincerely hope that Trap recognises which of last night's players weren't up to scratch and he does something to rectify it.
We have hounded out our last 3 managers and are now on the case of the 4th. I'm avoiding the temptation to say enough is enough as I'm still hopeful we'll see something different and better emerge. Not based on any great evidence mind you.
first off i agree we dont necessarily have the players to win a group but there are three or four things about Trap that get to me. These suggest that he is not the messiah certain people are making him out to be.
1. Style: Our style has seen us revert back to the Charlton era. One step forward, four steps back. And we are not even nearly as good at it. We are horrible to watch. I think this stems from Trappatoni not valuing our players in any way.
2. Subs/Squad selection: Substitutions can change a game. You can retain your system even if you make a substitution. Why not stick Folan on for the last 20 minutes to win some of those long balls we are playing? Otherwise what the hell is he doing on the bench/in the squad? If you dont think that our squad players are worth introducing to change a game, where is the harm in inviting other options to replace them in the squad and see what they can offer.
3. Team Selection: Why does McShane continue to feature. This leper can barely kick the ball. Why is he in the squad? Next why is he in the team? Is he punishing Kelly for a sub par performance against the Georgians, after he had just returned from injury? Will hardly do alot for Kelly's confidence or team morale in general.
4. Tactics. Do you pick players to fit a system or do you pick a system to fit your players? With no "comfortable on the ball" midfielders or full backs we are trying to fit sub standard players into a system they cannot play effectively - i think this is too rigid. Im not sure what the answer is but, as ainsie said, im not being paid millions to figure this out.
The general consensus here before the game was that we would comfortably beat Bulgaria at home by 2 goals. People were pointing out how terrible that Bulgarian squad was, never heard of the players, aging defenders, no Berbatov and so on. We didnt do that, we were lucky to draw actually. I knew that no matter how bad those players were alleged to be that we would be lucky to draw the game (i won a good few quid on the draw by the way). Our system invites other teams into our half and to dominate possession. That is not the Irish way.
Im not interested in arguing this any more as it seems that people are just happy to be playing this way as long as it gets us to SA. Im not happy with this as 1) i cant see us qualifying anyway, 2) we will do terribly if we get there, 3) where do we go after this? we have brought nobody through - not one player. We have some decent players and good prospects at Championship level who will have to learn the international game and squad set-up and integrate into the set-up from scratch. It just p*sses me off.
I like high energy football. A little bit rock and roll. Many finishes instead of waiting for the perfect one.
My head agrees with Stu but I'm fighting the temptation to blame everything on the manager.
What an ignorant preaching post well I suppose your from this nation!!
The thread was never about Andy fecking Reid. It was about the FACT that our best 24 are not there on game night. Bruce , Folan , Miller, Stokes , Mcshane, Whelan. The post was about the fact that this manager is too old and stubblrn to admit that something is not working and do something about it.
Making your own luck, IMO the other teams were unlucky , especially Georgia.
The post was about the fact that the man does not seem to be able to play a different system when it is needed. Its no harm being negative and building a good defensive unit. Its no harm having ONE defensive mid feilder but lets try and pair it with someone with flair.
Maybe the fact that we are whinging is the fact that we're sick of being second best (actually we have dropped to third best) and not ignorant because we have a different opinion to yourself.
If we loose and I hope we dont on Wednesday , theres a good chance that Bulgaria will win against Cyprus. Then its 4 points behind with a game in hand and next game at home to us. All of a sudden alls not so rosy in the Garden. So its great that we have beaten the power house of Georgia twice , Cyprus once and a draw with Montenegro and Bulgaria at home , but the hard work is to come and if we play like we did last night I worry, bigtime.
Again I dont have any solutions but neither did Kerr or Stan.
What??
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