Rugby Union 2009

**OneRedArmy** · 13/01/2009, 7:59 AM

The ELVs were trialled in a Stellensbosch University league for a whole season before they were introduced, gradually, at higher levels.

From memory the aimless kicking only became a feature when introduced to professional rugby.

Therefore I'd say it has a lot to do with negative tactics and risk aversity by coaches.

Also, its unfair to say the ELVs in totality aren't working. The rules around collapsing the maul, lineout and replacing penalties with free kicks are working extremely well and speeding the game up.

Before the ELVs England (and Ireland too) had turned the game into a copy of American football, by slowing it down to a crawl and running pre-planned plays based off lineout and maul at almost every phase. The ELVs were designed to introduce a bit more spontaneity and pace back into the game and ensure the ball is in play more.

Change was definitely needed. I'd wait a while before we write the ELVs off.

**Bald Student** · 14/01/2009, 5:20 AM

The excessive kicking really started in the last world cup when Argentina did well from it. It's become more common now because teams aren't allowed to seal off their own ball in the ruck any more so holding possession in your own half is more dangerous. That's not really one of the ELVs but the pre-existing law being enforced as it's written.

**joeSoap** · 14/01/2009, 10:42 AM

The ELV's will be passed in May (or at least the majority of them) because 5 of the top 8 Nations (NZ, Aus, SA, Arg and Eng) are all supportive of them and will vote them in. The single biggest one for me that I hate is the abolishing of the rolling maul. It was a great skill to perfect, and by allowing teams to bring it down, you are taking one of the great spectacles from the game. Also, penalising players for not immediately releasing sounds great in theory, but in fact merely leads to a slower game as a result of the ensuing stoppages.

**paudie** · 17/01/2009, 4:27 PM

Surprise win for Glasgow away to Toulouse today. Gives Bath a chance of topping the group.
Good win for Ulster at home to Harlequins as well

**OneRedArmy** · 18/01/2009, 9:19 PM

Originally Posted by joeSoap

The ELV's will be passed in May (or at least the majority of them) because 5 of the top 8 Nations (NZ, Aus, SA, Arg and Eng) are all supportive of them and will vote them in. The single biggest one for me that I hate is the abolishing of the rolling maul. It was a great skill to perfect, and by allowing teams to bring it down, you are taking one of the great spectacles from the game. Also, penalising players for not immediately releasing sounds great in theory, but in fact merely leads to a slower game as a result of the ensuing stoppages.

Completely disagree. Ever since they permitted lifting in the lineouts and made it easier to take your own ball, the catch and drive was over-used and once you got a maul started it was almost impossible to stop legally. This lead to ridiculous situations in the last few seasons were the defending team withdrew from the maul, leaving the attacking side technically offside.

**Real ale Madrid** · 19/01/2009, 3:27 PM

Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Completely disagree. Ever since they permitted lifting in the lineouts and made it easier to take your own ball, the catch and drive was over-used and once you got a maul started it was almost impossible to stop legally. This lead to ridiculous situations in the last few seasons were the defending team withdrew from the maul, leaving the attacking side technically offside.

One your first point if you commit the numbers to the maul then then you should be able to stop it legally. I've seen plenty mauls held up pre ELV's. Only one or two teams perfect the maul, Munster were the only team i saw consistantly use the rolling maul, so i have disagree with you there.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that the defending team withdrew from the maul? - can you give an example - i've never seen this?

I don't really know what exactly the ELV's have greatly done for the game of rugby? They could have been phased in a little better as well - lots of penalties over the weekend.

**hula4** · 19/01/2009, 3:53 PM

Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid

One your first point if you commit the numbers to the maul then then you should be able to stop it legally. I've seen plenty mauls held up pre ELV's. Only one or two teams perfect the maul, Munster were the only team i saw consistantly use the rolling maul, so i have disagree with you there.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that the defending team withdrew from the maul? - can you give an example - i've never seen this?

I don't really know what exactly the ELV's have greatly done for the game of rugby? They could have been phased in a little better as well - lots of penalties over the weekend.

i think the real problem at the moment is the refereeing at the breakdown which strictly speaking isnt an elv. they are merely enforcing the existing laws more forcefully at the breakdown in relation to staying on your feet and releasing the ball which leads imo to the increased kicking as teams are trying to avoid giving away penalties in their own half. thats my take on it anyway

**Schumi** · 19/01/2009, 4:17 PM

Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that the defending team withdrew from the maul? - can you give an example - i've never seen this?

Before the ELVs came in, some teams would take all their players out of a maul when the other team had the ball. This meant that attacking players in the maul in front of the ball were offside, similar to crossing, as they weren't bound to any defenders.

**OneRedArmy** · 19/01/2009, 5:40 PM

Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid

Only one or two teams perfect the maul, Munster were the only team i saw consistantly use the rolling maul, so i have disagree with you there.

The whole of the English Premiership and the English and Irish international team also over-used the rolling maul over the last 7 years.

Schumi explained my other point perfectly.

**pete** · 19/01/2009, 5:51 PM

Glasgow away win at Toulouse must be biggest shock in HC group stages for years?

Ulster good value for their win even if they were kind of hanging on a bit before breakaway try.

Did not fancy Munster before Friday game but they overpowered Sale who made too many mistakes. I think a win (possibly no need for bonus point) could get them a home tie in the quarter final. With Tipoki coming back & Leamy getting fitter they are starting to look strong again.

Leinster have it in their own hands but home quarter final seems unlikely. Only saw a little bit of the game but they still don't convince.

**Real ale Madrid** · 19/01/2009, 5:59 PM

Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

The whole of the English Premiership and the English and Irish international team also over-used the rolling maul over the last 7 years.

Schumi explained my other point perfectly.

Just because something is over used by certian teams doesn't make it wrong. You could argue its effectiveness.

I understand now how a team can get out of the way. But i watch a lot of rugby and can honestly say i never saw a team do that. Wouldn't a maul have to start behind a tackle tho. I mean a team would have to make a conscious effort to say "un-bind" from the initial tackle - which i would have thought very difficult?

**osarusan** · 19/01/2009, 10:47 PM

Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid

I understand now how a team can get out of the way. But i watch a lot of rugby and can honestly say i never saw a team do that. Wouldn't a maul have to start behind a tackle tho. I mean a team would have to make a conscious effort to say "un-bind" from the initial tackle - which i would have thought very difficult?

It happens quite a lot in Super 14 rugby, though not as much last season. It happened mainly from lineouts - there being an assumption that the team who doesn't get the ball will immediately attack the maul, but the tactic was to leave a metre or so of space between attacking team and defending team, so if the ball is brought to the back of the pack, the forwards will be offside.

**Bald Student** · 19/01/2009, 11:54 PM

One think I noticed in the Wasps-Leinster game was how ineffective both teams' kicking game was. Kicking the ball long and depending on the opposition to make a mistake didn't work against good wings and full backs. I think both teams dropped one each and it gave me a bit of hope that the excess kicking might sort itself out if teams get better at fielding.

**endabob1** · 20/01/2009, 7:10 AM

Originally Posted by osarusan

It happens quite a lot in Super 14 rugby, though not as much last season. It happened mainly from lineouts - there being an assumption that the team who doesn't get the ball will immediately attack the maul, but the tactic was to leave a metre or so of space between attacking team and defending team, so if the ball is brought to the back of the pack, the forwards will be offside.

The Boks nailed Argentina with that precise tactic in the WC semi, The Pumas kick & Maul game was working well against everyone else but the Boks must have got 3 or 4 penalties using that precise move. I couldn�t understand why more teams didn�t do it against them, as you say it was Super 14 teams that developed it so they were used to doing it/being the victims of it.

**shakermaker1982** · 20/01/2009, 11:18 AM

Wales drop Peel?! Shocked at that announcement. The move to Sale seems to have cost him. Anybody know when Ireland name their squad for the 6N?

**hula4** · 20/01/2009, 2:10 PM

Originally Posted by shakermaker1982

Wales drop Peel?! Shocked at that announcement. The move to Sale seems to have cost him. Anybody know when Ireland name their squad for the 6N?

tomorrow i think

**Bald Student** · 21/01/2009, 12:01 AM

Originally Posted by shakermaker1982

Wales drop Peel?! Shocked at that announcement. The move to Sale seems to have cost him. Anybody know when Ireland name their squad for the 6N?

When Gatland took the job he said he wouldn't pick foreign based players.

**joeSoap** · 21/01/2009, 8:59 AM

Gatland says a lot of things. I think that this is purely down to form Peel has only started 9 times out of 19 for Sale, and clearly would be off the pace for 6 Nations. If Cooper doesn't work out as back up to Phillips then Peel will be back in like a shot.

**Schumi** · 21/01/2009, 1:47 PM

Squad announced. No Humphreys!

Backs:
Tommy Bowe (Ospreys)
Darren Cave (Ulster)*
Gordon D�Arcy (Leinster)
Girvan Dempsey (Leinster)
Ian Dowling (Munster)*
Keith Earls (Munster)
Luke Fitzgerald (Leinster)
Shane Horgan (Leinster)
Robert Kearney (Leinster)
Geordan Murphy (Leicester)
Brian O'Driscoll (Leinster)
Ronan O'Gara (Munster)
Tomas O'Leary (Munster)
Eoin Reddan (Wasps)
Jonathan Sexton (Leinster)*
Peter Stringer (Munster)
Andrew Trimble (Ulster)
Paddy Wallace (Ulster)

Forwards:
Rory Best (Ulster)
Ryan Caldwell (Ulster)*
Bob Casey (London Irish)
Tom Court (Ulster)*
Stephen Ferris (Ulster)
Jerry Flannery (Munster)
John Hayes (Munster)
Cian Healy (Leinster)*
Jamie Heaslip (Leinster)
Marcus Horan (Munster)
Bernard Jackman (Leinster)
Shane Jennings (Leinster)
Denis Leamy (Munster)
Donncha O'Callaghan (Munster)
Paul O'Connell (Munster)
Mick O'Driscoll (Munster)
Malcolm O�Kelly (Leinster)
Alan Quinlan (Munster)
Mike Ross (Harlequins)*
Donnacha Ryan (Munster)
David Wallace (Munster)