Cardiff City/Derry City

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10/03/2008, 9:27 PM
micls

Cardiff City/Derry City

Quote:

Looks like UEFA are at it again.

An interesting development with Cardiff City has emerged.

Should they win the FA Cup, not as unlikley now as it might have been a few months ago, they will not be allowed compete in the UEFA Cup next season.

The reason is because they are under the juristiction of the Welsh FA. So, even though they compete in the English League and Cup they are ineligible to represent England in European competition.

It gets better though..............

They cannot represent Wales either because they compete in a foreign competition.

This was posted on out forum. Looking for a link atm.

But if its true what(if any) implications would it have for Derry.

They have represented us in the same situation.....

Is it a new ruling? If so would Derry be disallowed from representing us from now on?
10/03/2008, 9:32 PM
DmanDmythDledge

Presumably the same exception that allowed Derry to join the League of Ireland would still apply for them.
10/03/2008, 9:35 PM
Sheridan

What makes you think there's any parallel here? Derry aren't under the jurisdiction of the IFA.
10/03/2008, 9:42 PM
micls

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheridan

What makes you think there's any parallel here? Derry aren't under the jurisdiction of the IFA.

I'm definitely not sure of anything. Just wondering.

How is the Cardiff situation different to the Derry one jurisdiction wise? Not sure of the details.
10/03/2008, 9:47 PM
DmanDmythDledge

Don't think Cardiff are under the jurisdiction of the FAW anymore- they're barred for entering the Welsh Cup anyway.
10/03/2008, 9:48 PM
John83

There's no equivalent problem for Derry here.

The problem, such as it is, is that Cardiff are registered with the Welch FA, and the English FA won't nominate them for Europe. Ever. UEFA have no problem with this, either way.

Derry are registered with the FAI, not the IFA, and even if they weren't, I don't think the FAI would be arrogant enough to refuse to let Derry take a European slot they earned.
10/03/2008, 9:48 PM
Stato

As far as I know Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham are all registered with the Welsh FA but are allowed play in the English League. For many years all three teams competed in the Welsh FA Cup and (as far as I remember) represented Wales in the UEFA Cup if they won it.

For quite a while, English teams competed in the Welsh FA Cup. I think Hereford United were the last English team to win it in 1990 but the UEFA Cup spot was given to the best performing Welsh side. I'm guessing it's this precedent that applies to Cardiff City in the English FA Cup.

Derry City on the other hand are registered under the FAI and have no involvement whatsoever with the Irish FA.
10/03/2008, 9:50 PM
micls

Thanks for the info lads
10/03/2008, 9:56 PM
rambler14

Cardiff are under the system of he FAW (Football Assocition of Wales) and have opted to play in FA competition and so sacrifice European football.

Derry on the other hand are under the system of the FAI and have no association with the IFA.
10/03/2008, 9:57 PM
finnpark

Quote:

Originally Posted by micls

This was posted on out forum. Looking for a link atm.

But if its true what(if any) implications would it have for Derry.

They have represented us in the same situation.....

Is it a new ruling? If so would Derry be disallowed from representing us from now on?

Vaduz compete in Switz but qualify for Europe by winning the Liecenstein cup so if Wexham, Swansea and Cardiff participated in the Welsh cup they could play in Europe and help pump up their rankings. Proper order that they are banned, they should be playing in Wales
11/03/2008, 2:58 AM
Candystripe

Strange one.

Derry played Cardiff in the uefa cup in the 1990 season.

Drawing 0-0 in the Brandywell and losing 4-0 away.

I think it was after this that they gave up their Welsh creds when the welsh started their own league.
11/03/2008, 8:52 AM
dortie

We are under the FAI so there is no comparison, in addition to that the vast majority of Derry fans legally hold an Irish passport, in Cardiffs situation they consider themselves of a seperate nationality.

Registered with the FAI - Thats the main difference.
11/03/2008, 12:43 PM
David

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stato

As far as I know Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham are all registered with the Welsh FA but are allowed play in the English League. For many years all three teams competed in the Welsh FA Cup and (as far as I remember) represented Wales in the UEFA Cup if they won it.

For quite a while, English teams competed in the Welsh FA Cup. I think Hereford United were the last English team to win it in 1990 but the UEFA Cup spot was given to the best performing Welsh side. I'm guessing it's this precedent that applies to Cardiff City in the English FA Cup.

Derry City on the other hand are registered under the FAI and have no involvement whatsoever with the Irish FA.

I am pretty sure this part is wrong. As far as I am aware Derry as still registered with the IFA. I know they get grants etc. In the case of Cardiff I think it may be the English FA's choice not to have them as representatives.
11/03/2008, 12:47 PM
neutrino

Quote:

Originally Posted by Candystripe

Strange one.

Derry played Cardiff in the uefa cup in the 1990 season.

Drawing 0-0 in the Brandywell and losing 4-0 away.

I think it was after this that they gave up their Welsh creds when the welsh started their own league.

Cardiff used to get in via winning the FAW Cup but UEFA/FAW stopped this.
11/03/2008, 12:50 PM
neutrino

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

In the case of Cardiff I think it may be the English FA's choice not to have them as representatives.

exactly correct.
11/03/2008, 12:54 PM
Flexy

What grants? Not seen any since 1988
11/03/2008, 12:59 PM
David

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flexy

What grants? Not seen any since 1988

Who paid for Derry City's YDO?
11/03/2008, 1:28 PM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by dortie

We are under the FAI so there is no comparison, in addition to that the vast majority of Derry fans legally hold an Irish passport, in Cardiffs situation they consider themselves of a seperate nationality.

Registered with the FAI - Thats the main difference.

Is there a prize for the most irrelevant point posted on any topic?

Anyhow, whilst the English FA permits Cardiff, Swansea, Wrexham, Newport and Merthyr to play in their competitions, they will not allow them any of the European places open to English clubs.

Cardiff etc know that when they enter the FA Cup.

If they don't like that, then they can always try to qualify for Europe via the Welsh Cup, although afaik they would then have to forfeit their entry to the FA Cup (and possibly even have to enter the Welsh League?).

As for Derry City, whether they are actually registed with the IFA (I think likely) or the FAI (don't think so), they are competing in the FAI's competitions entirely legally and we must presume the FAI has no objection to DC taking up one of the FAI's European allocation anytime they do well enough to qualify.

We must also assume that UEFA have no objection to either situation, indeed most likely support them, since it is what their Member Associations want.
11/03/2008, 2:29 PM
dcfc_legend9

The way i see it though is that Cardiff city had a choice to go to the English league rather than stay in there own welsh league.

Derry had know choice whatsoever. We got forced out of the Irish league and thankfully got excepted into the league of ireland.

Surely this is the difference in the rules on why Derry are allowed to play in europe should they qualify through the LOI and cardiff arent allowed if they where to qualify.

Cardiff chose to leave the welsh league
Derry where forced out of the Irish league
11/03/2008, 2:31 PM
Krstic

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Who paid for Derry City's YDO?

I believe that has more to do with the political jurisdiction that Derry City finds itself in.
Wasn't the money for the YDO's Government money??
11/03/2008, 2:35 PM
David

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krstic

I believe that has more to do with the political jurisdiction that Derry City finds itself in.
Wasn't the money for the YDO's Government money??

As far as I am aware it was from the IFA. I have read, but can't be specific to be honest, of you getting other IFA grants.
11/03/2008, 2:37 PM
Krstic

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

As far as I am aware it was from the IFA. I have read, but can't be specific to be honest, of you getting other IFA grants.

Not sure but doubt it, it may be Government money that is Distributed by the IFA, and as DCFC pay the same Taxes as the IL clubs, we're entitled to any Government handouts.
11/03/2008, 4:06 PM
R�iteoir

Quote:

Originally Posted by finnpark

Vaduz compete in Switz but qualify for Europe by winning the Liecenstein cup so if Wexham, Swansea and Cardiff participated in the Welsh cup they could play in Europe and help pump up their rankings.

To do that they would have to return and play in the Welsh Premier League - which the clubs don't want to do.

They can't have it both ways...
11/03/2008, 4:28 PM
endabob1

David is correct, it is actually up to the (English) FA who they nominate and Cardiff will not be nominated if they win the cup.
11/03/2008, 4:52 PM
John83

Perhaps a Derry official or someone who knows one can confirm whether they're registered with the IFA or the FAI, but the fact remains, if the FAI have no problem nominating Derry for a European spot, this is a non-issue here.
11/03/2008, 5:30 PM
dcfc_1928

That is correct - it was government money which the IFA were asked to administer and distribute.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krstic

Not sure but doubt it, it may be Government money that is Distributed by the IFA, and as DCFC pay the same Taxes as the IL clubs, we're entitled to any Government handouts.
11/03/2008, 5:50 PM
garyderry

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Who paid for Derry City's YDO?

The YDO is for the region not the club,

We are 100% registered solely with the FAI for senior football,
i do remember us in the past having teams in junior football
under the IFA and got in an almighty mess were we had to transfer
players just to make a senior debut, we cut all ties at that stage, even to play
reserve teams in anyway under the IFA.

We are an FAI team, and are registered with Uefa as such and represent
our league and country on a regular(ish) basis, without any hassle at all.

The IFA have no say what so ever in anything to do with Derry City FC (Thank God)

We may apply for grants but form the assembly (as we are entitled to do so) but NOT from the IFA as we would not be entitled to.
11/03/2008, 5:55 PM
garyderry

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

As for Derry City, whether they are actually registed with the IFA (I think likely) or the FAI (don't think so), they are competing in the FAI's competitions entirely legally and we must presume the FAI has no objection to DC taking up one of the FAI's European allocation anytime they do well enough to qualify.

How could derry possibly be registered with the IFA and NOT the FAI
That is just as daft as the post about irish passports,

We are a full 100% member of the Eircom League and The FAI, and entitled to the huge benefits of that membership / registration compared to being part of the FAI.

As much as everyone gives out about the FAI on a constant basis down here, its in the whole not the worst organisation in the world (by some degree) and the league is a pretty good league to be involved on.
11/03/2008, 7:22 PM
kingdomkerry

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Is there a prize for the most irrelevant point posted on any topic?

Anyhow, whilst the English FA permits Cardiff, Swansea, Wrexham, Newport and Merthyr to play in their competitions, they will not allow them any of the European places open to English clubs.

Cardiff etc know that when they enter the FA Cup.

If they don't like that, then they can always try to qualify for Europe via the Welsh Cup, although afaik they would then have to forfeit their entry to the FA Cup (and possibly even have to enter the Welsh League?).

As for Derry City, whether they are actually registed with the IFA (I think likely) or the FAI (don't think so), they are competing in the FAI's competitions entirely legally and we must presume the FAI has no objection to DC taking up one of the FAI's European allocation anytime they do well enough to qualify.

We must also assume that UEFA have no objection to either situation, indeed most likely support them, since it is what their Member Associations want.

How did I know you that was coming!
11/03/2008, 7:32 PM
kdjaC

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfc_legend9

The way i see it though is that Cardiff city had a choice to go to the English league rather than stay in there own welsh league.

Welsh league only formed in last 20 odd years, card over 100 years old.

oh and whats a YDO?

kdjac
11/03/2008, 7:58 PM
Aaron

Youth Development Officer
11/03/2008, 8:04 PM
Joe Strummer

Cardiff played only a few weeks ago in the FAW Premier cup semi final against Newport County and were beating http://www.cardiffcityfc.premiumtv.c...~43332,00.html
11/03/2008, 9:12 PM
dcfcsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Strummer

Cardiff played only a few weeks ago in the FAW Premier cup semi final against Newport County and were beating http://www.cardiffcityfc.premiumtv.c...~43332,00.html

That is a 'super cup' type competition for all Welsh clubs, including those in England, with no Euro qualification involved.
11/03/2008, 9:14 PM
dcfcsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfc_legend9

Cardiff chose to leave the welsh league
Derry where forced out of the Irish league

As a previous piosrters has mentioned, Cardiff had no choice either - there was no national Welsh league until 1992.

That said, I believe all the Welsh exile teams playing in a Welsh league would be best for them as clubs (i.e. regular Euro qualification) and best for Welsh football.
11/03/2008, 10:42 PM
HolylandsMan

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by finnpark View Post
Vaduz compete in Switz but qualify for Europe by winning the Liecenstein cup so if Wexham, Swansea and Cardiff participated in the Welsh cup they could play in Europe and help pump up their rankings.
To do that they would have to return and play in the Welsh Premier League - which the clubs don't want to do.

I think I vaguely remember reading soemthing somewhere (possibly on here) which said that the Welsh FA would be happy for Cardiff etc to play reserve sides in the Welsh FA Cup to qualify for Europe that way so that Welsh performances would be improved.

I think Cardiff and Swansea were opposed as they were afraid it would jeopardise their position in the English Leagues.
11/03/2008, 11:15 PM
dcfcsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by HolylandsMan

I think I vaguely remember reading soemthing somewhere (possibly on here) which said that the Welsh FA would be happy for Cardiff etc to play reserve sides in the Welsh FA Cup to qualify for Europe that way so that Welsh performances would be improved.

I think Cardiff and Swansea were opposed as they were afraid it would jeopardise their position in the English Leagues.

The complete opposite is true.

The rules of both the FA Cup and the Welsh FA Cup state that clubs must play their best available sides. It is a rule almost never enforced in England. However - in ther earkly years of the Welsh Premier League, the Welsh FA used to deliberately schedule the earleir rounds of the WFA Cup to fall on the same days as the earlier rounds of the English FA Cup. This was a sneaky way to stop the exile clubs playing - as they'd only field a second string for the Welsh versions, and would thereby be deemd in breach of the competition rules.

The Welsh FA won't let the exile clubs anywhere near European slots unless they're part of the Welsh Premier League. And rightly so. Meanwhile, the English FA wouldn't give a toss if the Welsh exiles played in the WFA Cup. They didn't care for decades when they did (as, indeed, did a number of English clubs).
12/03/2008, 10:46 AM
historynut

A TAFFS Input

Allow me to put a Taff's angle on this (providing you guys will permit me to speak after Saturday).
Prior to 1992 there was no national league in Wales only regional, no wonder teams below Football League level who were ambitious tended to play across the border in english pyramid system. The only Welsh representation in Europe was via winning the Welsh Cup and this was only available to Welsh Clubs. So on occasion when one of the english border clubs reached the final, their Welsh opponents were guaranteed European entry wether they won or not. Fortunatly the scenario never arose if 2 english clubs reached the final.
When the decision was taken to establish a National League, apart from the big 3 my lot Wrexham, the Swans and Cardiff (whom I offer congrats on thier cup run), Welsh teams competing in england at that time were Newport (trying to regain League membership), Bangor City, Rhyl, Caernarfon, Colwyn Bay, Newtown, Barry Town, & Merthyr Tydfyl. With Bangor, Rhyl Barry & Merthyr having long established cross border credentials . Whilst the others had only crossed the border in recent seasons.
When the Welsh FA announced that a national league was to be set up, it was envisaged that these cross border clubs would come into the fold, however a number objected to being told where they had to play. Today only Newport (still after regaining League place) Mertyr & Colwyn Bay still play across border.
With UEFA thus recognising league champions for European entry, the National Cup had to be for Welsh based clubs only. After a number of seasons the FAW decided to set up a New Cup with sponsorship from BBCWales the FAW Premier Cup, no European entry but involving the big 3, top 5 FAW League clubs & top crossborder club from previous season. However the sponsorship has been withdrawn and this trophy was last played for last night when Newport beat Llanelli. There have been occasions when it has been muted that the winners would get European entry.
As for the FAW League the latest suggestion is to allow the big 3 to enter reserve teams. As you can appreciate member clubs not too happy about this.
Though the big 3 enter the FA Cup we know we wont qualify for Europe if won which this season has that possibiility.
Part of the problem is that the big 3 are not giving up over 80 years of english league history with its crowd appeal though this means no entry into Europe. Yet these are the only 3 clubs that would represent Welsh football to its best fore in Europe.
Why not have a gander at the Welsh Premier League website and see the level its at.
12/03/2008, 10:47 AM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by garyderry

How could derry possibly be registered with the IFA and NOT the FAI
That is just as daft as the post about irish passports

In exactly the same way e.g as Cardiff being members of the FAW, but playing in the English FA's competitions.

Anyhow, I think DCFC Steve's above post has it just about spot on.

P.S. Out of curiousity, why is everyone so seemingly concerned about Cardiff? Or is it mere academic interest?
12/03/2008, 4:39 PM
lilywhite stu

The Welsh clubs playing in the English league(thay have always played in England) should be treated as English clubs and let enter Europe through English club competitions. The Welsh League is only semi-professional(I'm probably being generous calling it that) and serves its purpose as providing a semi-pro competition for clubs in the principality (Wales historically it is NOT a nation/country like Ireland, Scotland or England anyway and Gordon Brown is Prime Minister in Cardiff the same way as he is in Bristol). Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham are simply playing in their local professional league, 'the football league'. While the Welsh clubs in the English league would like to participate in the FAW to acknowledge their Welshness I can very much understand why they would prefer to not roll over and die by joining a Welsh league.
12/03/2008, 5:59 PM
historynut

Lilywhite stu you are more than correct in what you say. However would you believe TNS and Llanelli are actually full-time !
Not only that but TNS are now english based in Oswestry. This as a result of merger between TNS and Oswestry Town. Oswestry were actually founder members of Welsh FA in 1876. When they sold their old ground years back, though they did'nt compete for a while the club continued, when their new ground was completed they were allowed to enter Welsh football due to their historic link. TNS was the village team from Llansantfraid some 8 miles from Oswestry within the Welsh border. TNS took the name of their sponsers Total Network Solutions, however when that company was sold the club took a new name keeping the same innitials 'The New Saints'. The move to Oswestry was to a better stadium (cough, cough) wth artificial pitch, and potentially (cough, cough, must get some strepsils) better crowds !N
In respect of the big 3 in Europe they & Newport (when a league side) all had good runs in the old Cup Winners Cup. Cardiff actually reached semi's in late 60's, not too sure what Swans best run was, and Newport & my lot Wrexham both reached Q/finals. Now those were the nights in the 70's Anderlecht (1-2 over 2 legs) and they reckoned they were lucky and gave them harder game than WHU in final.

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